SFR, Inc.

[diggity60503]

Scenario: During what was the end game (the losing end for me), the following situation occurred:
My opponent (Goblins) held the 8th Face at My Home (Wasteland Standing Stones).
I (Undead) controlled the 8th Face at the Frontier (Coastland City).
Terrain was at 7th at My Opponent’s Home (Swampland City).

Opponent’s First March killed off my army (which was minimal) at the Frontier thus automatically turning the terrain down to 7. It was now completely unoccupied by either army.

Opponent decided not to take a second march and retreats his entire Home Army to the Reserves.

On my turn, I turn up the 8th Face at my Opponent’s Home. This is an unopposed Maneuver and now is also the crux of this post. Reading through posts around the boards, I recognize that the likely scenario is my opponent is going to roll Magic at My Home on his First March, cast Path, move to the Frontier and move it up unopposed to 8th Face to win.
Now I had been employing the use of a Gold Medallion during the game, and had been besieged by 3 Black Dragons at the Frontier for a long battle (amazing how incompetent the dragons were in dispatching me). At one point, during the Dragon Attack Phase, I rolled Wayfare on the Medallion and slipped away with it to My Opponent’s Home.

In retreating all units from His Home, my opponent yields me an unopposed Maneuver and prevents me from making a Maneuver Roll. It’s a fine tactic based on the rules, but I disagree with the rule “logic” behind it and am curious about the “whys”.

My reasoning (and certainly it could be flawed) is that the point of maneuvering at all is to put one’s armies in a better position to “win”. The aggressor is generally trying to move forward from a Magic to a Missile to a Melee situation in order to ultimately take the terrain. In so maneuvering, scouts are sent out, smaller bands of troops are taking guard posts all in a hope to push the defending army back to the theoretical stronghold of the 8th face. Just because a general decides to abandon posts and leave “dummy” soldiers on duty that doesn’t stop my army from doing its job. If I have SAIs that would be beneficial to me, I should be able to take my Maneuver roll and gain whatever benefits result.

In this specific example, if I’m fortunate enough to roll the Wayfare, I get to send a unit and the Medallion to the Frontier and I get to Maneuver up to 8th face on my Second March securing victory.

Without a roll, the maneuvering army could be denied Cantrips and maybe other SAIs (I am not fully versed) because the current rule permits the defending army to simply say – “nah, we don’t want to risk the results of your roll and so we’ll yield the face change”. Certainly, this is not to say that over the course of history, armies haven’t yielded ground to try and gain a better advantage down the road, but again the aggressor is being denied their “rightful” benefits.

It’s possible that one could expand this discussion into applying similar arguments during actions, but while similar perhaps, that’s a different level for a different thread.
_________________
465 dice and counting...
now 641 and counting...(the wife isn't suspicious yet)...06/05/13
649...6/12/13
Might have an actual addiction...die 1000 Gold Speed Slipper...07/04/13
Final Count 1212

[cliffwiggs]

I understand the situation, I do it evertime I roll for 'melee' against a hidden unit I have no possibility to damage.

The crux of your situation is that you want to roll to activate an SAI and you aren't allowed to roll. This is no different than when my scalders or counter or volley units aren't allowed to roll saves against no damage. Or I can't roll for missiles or melee with no target. i.e. there are lots of times I might want to roll and I can't. Any of those situations could result in a win or a lose, just like your situation. I just don't see the maneuver roll as standing above those others as needing to be changed.

BTW
There are only a few SAI's that function during a maneuver roll (and cantrip isn't one of them), let me see if I can list them...

Create Fire minions
Elevate
Firewalking
Fly
Rend
Teleport
Trample
Wave
and of course Wayfare

of all those only Wayfare allows for a 'special' result, so it is the only one that would change in your example.

I do see how in that circumstance it could affect the outcome of the game. but if I allow for one unneeded roll I have to allow for all of them and then the game overpowers those SAI's that give special results.
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Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[diggity60503]

How does Trample work when rolled during a Maneuver?

What I read is: if I roll 3 Tramples, I get the counts for the Maneuver that is being resolved and as a bonus, I inflict 3 Melee immediately (rather than added onto forthcoming action). I would presume that the opponent gets to save. Would this bring up the unusual situation where the terrain could be at Magic, but due to the Trample I get the Melee effects? Then I assume that during a typical action if I roll Trample and the same Melee results apply, the saves just go away since it's non-maneuver.
_________________
465 dice and counting...
now 641 and counting...(the wife isn't suspicious yet)...06/05/13
649...6/12/13
Might have an actual addiction...die 1000 Gold Speed Slipper...07/04/13
Final Count 1212

[cliffwiggs]

[diggity60503]

[cliffwiggs]

Every time you roll, you are rolling FOR something.

If I'm rolling FOR magic and my common heavy melee guy comes up with melee results. I don't get to use them because I'm not rolling FOR melee.

This is no different than that.

The SAI generates a result that I don't need at the time, so you ignore it.

It doesn't have to do with the wording or the title. Its more basic than that.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99