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piMaster
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 Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:47 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Jim Rayborn wrote: | The Rare Dragonkin has a Single Icon Breath,(this is not considered a Misprint and it is a six sided unit)
so The Single Icon Double-Strike on the Tiger Folk Could be Listed separately in the SAI without reference to misprints.
(and listing the 4 hit points) |
True, the rare dragonkin and dragonkin champions do not follow this convention on their breath SAIs. I would presume TSR did this for artistic reasons. Since dragonkin are lesser versions of dragons, they designed the artwork so the icons flow from side to side like the dragons. But then again, the normal icons and other SAIs do follow the convention.
Note that the dragonkin breath entries specify how much health is affected while double strike does not. That is the important difference.
So, I guess its up to SFR to decide if they want to make a special notation about dragonkin breath.
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piMaster
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:56 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Also note that it is not only SFR that states that the Tiger-folk is a misprint. TSR put that in the Dice Commanders Manual on p. 108.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:56 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Note that the dragonkin breath entries specify how much health is affected while double strike does not. That is the important difference. |
I guess I was trying to state that an additional entrie for Double Strike would help clarify the Tiger-Folk's Double Strike icon value.
And seeing that the Rare Dragonkin are not refered to as Misprints,
perhaps the Tiger-Folk's misprint reference could be removed. |
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piMaster
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:08 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Jim Rayborn wrote: | | Quote: | | Note that the dragonkin breath entries specify how much health is affected while double strike does not. That is the important difference. |
I guess I was trying to state that an additional entrie for Double Strike would help clarify the Tiger-Folk's Double Strike icon value.
And seeing that the Rare Dragonkin are not refered to as Misprints,
perhaps the Tiger-Folk's misprint reference could be removed. |
Okay, so you want to remove the "has a misprint" and replace it with "The Feral Tiger-folk unit's Double Strike icon generates four melee results.".
I can live with that. I'm just used to it being called a misprint.
To be consistent, we should add a note about the dragonkin breaths.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:16 pm GMT Post subject: |
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I would like to see the SAI listings have 2 Double Strike Entries
just like Breath has 2 entries.
Also completely remove the intro reference to the Tiger-Folk.
Make any clarification to the Tiger-Folk's Double Strike in the SAI Listing Section in the Double Strike Entries. |
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piMaster
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:22 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Jim Rayborn wrote: | I would like to see the SAI listings have 2 Double Strike Entries
just like Breath has 2 entries.
Also completely remove the intro reference to the Tiger-Folk.
Make any clarification to the Tiger-Folk's Double Strike in the SAI Listing Section in the Double Strike Entries. |
Not likely to happen. We restructured the SAI listing so each SAI is listed only once. The rare dragonkin breath has a different effect from the champion dragonkin breath - that is why they are listed seperately. Every double strike icon does exactly the same thing, thus they are all put together as a single entry.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:37 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Every double strike icon does exactly the same thing, thus they are all put together as a single entry. |
Ok Brad I see your point,
It would be nice to see the Dragonlord's magic Power declared in the Starter Rules. |
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Autpost
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:52 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Clarification on page 48, under minor terrains-disasters. Rules state place the minor terrain out of the game. Does this mean it is "buried" or placed in the summoning pool for use at another time? |
It's neither. "Out of the game" is worse than being buried and only a few dice go there.
From the glossary:
Out of the Game: Any dice that are not currently in play and cannot potentially be brought into play in the future or affected by any game effect by any means whatsoever. This category encompasses terrains that were not selected for use as the frontier terrain, minor terrains that have been removed from play and dragons that have been banished by a Dragonhunter. Syn. Removed from the Game.
BTW: Dragonkins banished via Sneak Attack are not mentioned, (but it's not necessary to list all). I think there are only these 4 possibilities for moving out of the game.(?)
(Degenerate Dragonkin just buries the kins. Wouldn't it simplify the rules if Sneak Attack buries them too?)
| Quote: | I feel the reference to the Feral Tiger-Folk as a misprint should be deleted. ...
The reference to misprint has a sad connotation, I would rather see "special icon",rather than misprint. |
"The Feral Tiger-folk unit has a misprint." is an ugly sentence. It really hurts. 
And it's even mentioned twice (page 36 & 39). The Tiger-folk hides in shame.
You can write it like this:
During a melee attack, one Double Strike icon generates always four melee results (no matter if it is rolled on a 6- or 10-sided unit); roll this unit again and apply the new result as well.
Or add as suggested: "The Feral Tiger-folk unit's Double Strike icon generates four melee results." Which sounds much better than misprint.
About the Vampire: I'm aware this will not happen, but I would rather go the other way and remove the MPV exception. It is always annoying if you have one and only one die which needs an extra rule. The Convert SAI could be additionally counted as 3 magic if it comes up during a magic action. The Vampire would still be light magic compared with the Lich and there would be no 6-sided MPV exception any more. 
I fear the Vampire may become too powerful, but the melee part of Convert can be turned down to balance this out. It also doesn't fit that one rare unit is converted into three other units.
Here is a variant:
| Quote: | Convert: Resolution Type: Normal (Magic) Special (Melee)
During a melee attack, if the three Convert icons come up, choose three health-worth of units in the defending army. Targeted unit(s) must immediately generate a save. For each unit that doesn't save you may return one Undead unit of the same or lesser health from your dead unit area to the acting army. If you do, kill targeted units that have been converted.
During a magic action or magic avoidance roll the three Convert icons generate three magic results. |
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chuckpint
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:29 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Ok, I've made most of the corrections. Some notes follow:
Teleport is now consistent, it only works during a maneuver roll (as maneuver results), or during any action or non-maneuver avoidance roll (as special results). Note: It will work during a save avoidance roll, just not a save roll.
The example with Poison is now: | Quote: | Example : A unit is targeted with a Poison SAI. When the unit makes its first save avoidance roll, it rolls a Cantrip SAI. The unit does not save, but it does get to spend the Cantrip because this SAI is applicable during a save roll. If it had rolled Cantrip during the second save avoidance roll, it would not count, because it is in the DUA, and no SAI (unless it states otherwise) works in the DUA.
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Aspect will become important some day, trust me on this. But the reference to aspect with dragonkin was wrong, and was changed to element.
As far as minor terrains go, "out of the game" is exactly the correct term. Take a look in the glossary.
Changed the section on Dragonmasters to refer to "Dragonmasters of the same color" whenever referring to the number that can be brought.
Here's how I changed the start of the SAI reference section:
| Quote: | Special Action Icon (SAI) List:
The SAIs on six-sided dice generate as many results as the number of icons shown on the die face.
The SAIs on ten-sided dice generates four results unless stated otherwise in the SAI description.
The SAIs on the rare (3 health) magical items generates three results unless stated otherwise in the SAI description.
The SAIs on the medallions generates four results unless stated otherwise in the SAI description.
Exceptions:
The Feral Tiger-folk unit’s Double Strike icon generates four melee results.
The SFR/TSR logo face on the Dragonmaster and Dragonhunter generates two or four results depending on the type of roll. On the Dragonlord and Dragonslayer the logo face generates zero or four results depending on the type of roll.
Dragonkin Belly does not generate any results per se; it simply negates the dragonkin’s automatic saves.
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Under the Feral racial section, I simply removed the phrase about misprint.
As far as magic point value goes, that only applies to 10 sided-die and the Vampire. The Vampire has the weakest magic of any six-sided unit with magic icons in the game. Not going to change it. Dragonlords are very powerful, and this is yet another way to keep them in check. The rule clearly states that all other dice with any magic icon are equal to their health. So no need to say anything special about the Dragonlord.
Changed Sneak Attack to bury Dragonkin. Gives everyone one more reason to think about bringing a Silver Medallion.
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ddicerc
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:45 pm GMT Post subject: |
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What will the version of the rules as published be? Maybe it's just me, but doing a new release with rules version 2.1c just looks odd. Could we just go ahead and call them version 3.0 when published? (Heck, Yu-Gi-Oh ups the numbers on their ruless with every new starter deck series, even though the rules themselves really don't change much if at all.)
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chuckpint
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:35 pm GMT Post subject: |
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The actual printed rules that go in the starters are slightly different. First of all they are in 5 3/4" x 5 3/4" paper. Second, the "version" is simply the date that they take affect. So in this case, the 2.1b version of the rules had an effective date of "October 1, 2006", the 2.1c version of the rules have an effective date of "October 15, 2006". There is no version information in the printed rules other than that date.
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My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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Autpost
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:06 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Perhaps two stupid questions:
One about Fade: ... the target unit 1) cannot roll during a melee or missile action
But it may roll for saves against this missile/melee action.? (I would say yes, since the glossary says that a save roll is not considered an action.)
| Quote: | | Open Grave: Target any army. Until the beginning of your next turn, for any army-targeting effect that causes damage to the target army, any units taken as casualties immediately go to the reserve area rather than the DUA. Multiple castings target multiple armies. |
Is a melee/missile attack an army targeting effect? No; - So casualties removed because of an attack are not protected with Open Grave, only those casualties, which are the consequence of an effekt go to the reserve.?
Similar: Leaving: A melee-attack is not an army-targeting effect, so Leaving doesn't work against an attack. (Neither does it (& OG) work against Backlash & Firestorm because these spells are are terrain-targeting effects, so Leaving has no effect if those spells cause damage.(?)) (What if there is no other army they can join?) |
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Autpost
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ddicerc
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:23 pm GMT Post subject: |
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A melee or missile attack IS an army-targeting effect. You're not targeting individual dice. a terrain, a dragon, or anything else but an army. Therefore, both OG and Leaving work during those actions. However, I don't think either would protect units targeted by an SAI such as Bullseye. since they are individually targeted.
I believe Leaving has no effect if there is no other army for the units to join. You cannot form a new army with "Leaved"(?) units.
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piMaster
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:33 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is a melee/missile attack an army targeting effect? |
Yes because the army is the target of the attack. Spells like Backlash and Firestorm target the terrain, but their effects target the armies at the terrain. I see though, that the definition of "Effect" does not support this. Best solution would be to expand the glossary entry for "Targeting Effect > Army-Targeting Effect".
| Quote: | | (What if there is no other army they can join?) |
Then they go to the DUA.
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chuckpint
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:40 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Sigh...
Sure I can pick just one thing out of the rules and make it say different things. But only if you ignore the rest of the rules. The rules have to be taken in their entirety. The sections on melee and missile are very clear they target an army. Both sections say "army" over and over. As Steve pointed out, Open Grave and Leaving don't protect units in the army. So if the effect targets units, it does protect them.
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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piMaster
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:44 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| chuckpint wrote: | | As Steve pointed out, Open Grave and Leaving don't protect units in the army. So if the effect targets units, it does protect them. |
I think you meant to say it doesn't protect them. 
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Autpost
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:24 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Ok; It was always clear that an attack targets an army, I was only a bit confused because the description of "Effect" in the glossary doesn't mention that an attack is an effect as well.
That means I have played Open Grave in the right way. |
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DEEPBLUEB2
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:32 am GMT Post subject: |
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ROLL ON TO VICTORY!
has this been changed to ROLL TO VICTORY?
I remember it said "ROLL ON" before
I hope I'm not too late 
(it appears twice on the first page) |
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ddicerc
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:46 am GMT Post subject: |
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Well, Chuck can do what he wants, but the original was actually "Roll To Victory." I thought that sounded more intense than "Roll On To Victory."
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