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Raven Bloodeyes
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Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 576
Location: Rochester, NY
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 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:26 pm GMT Post subject: Misc Rules Questions |
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Here's a number of rules questions I've heard of late after going over the latest rules multiple times...
Questions:
-Horde roll, what really counts there? Move, Fly, ID, Trample, Wayfare, Create Fireminions, (i.e. those that are during ANY roll) anything else?? Teleport, etc.?? Anything that counts in a maneuver roll??
-Do terrain effects affect individual rolls of units in an army occupying a given terrain?
-Does Cantrip apply during a Dragon roll (i.e. to purchase saves or hit an opponent who may have summoned the dragon??)
-Does the Stun SAI, reroll and count the new result also on any roll, or just a melee attack where it applies?
-DO SAIs that function "during a save roll", function as saves in a dragon attack because it is a "combination roll" of sorts? |
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:02 pm GMT Post subject: Re: Misc Rules Questions |
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| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | Here's a number of rules questions I've heard of late after going over the latest rules multiple times...
Questions:
-Horde roll, what really counts there? Move, Fly, ID, Trample, Wayfare, Create Fireminions, (i.e. those that are during ANY roll) anything else?? Teleport, etc.?? Anything that counts in a maneuver roll?? |
From the section "Starting the Game" -> "Step 4: Determine Order of Play"
| rules wrote: | | Then roll your entire horde army and add up all the maneuver and ID icon results. |
So it's simple. ID icons, and any icon that counts as maneuver results. Anywhere in the rules it says "X results", it aways means normal results. So Teleport would count (produces normal results), but Wave would not (Delayed results).
| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | | -Do terrain effects affect individual rolls of units in an army occupying a given terrain? |
From the section "Eighth Face":
| rules wrote: | 1) When rolling for saves against army-targeting or terrain-targeting effects, all save results rolled are doubled. Note:
When a unit requires save results to avoid an individual-targeting effect, these results are not doubled. |
From the section "Racial Abilities":
| rules wrote: | | Racial abilities are applied to the army or to a unit when rolled individually. |
So from the above, double saves do not happen on individual rolls, but racial effects (i.e. maneuvers as saves) do happen.
| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | | -Does Cantrip apply during a Dragon roll (i.e. to purchase saves or hit an opponent who may have summoned the dragon??) |
From the SAI section on Cantrip:
| rules wrote: | During any non-magic
action, save roll or non-maneuver avoidance roll, Cantrip can be used to purchase spells that are immediately resolved. |
From the section "Playing the Game" -> "Dragon Attack Phase" -> "Step 5: Army’s response to the dragon’s attack.":
| rules wrote: | The army rolls a combination roll and applies any melee, missile, or save results generated by normal and special
action icons. |
From the section "Special Action Icons – General Information" -> "Resolution":
| rules wrote: | Unique: This SAI has an effect that is applied outside of the current roll. All activity is suspended to resolve the effect
of this SAI. Unique SAIs are applied at the same time as Special SAIs in any order the player wishes. Unique SAIs
do not function in a simultaneous roll (see below). |
So as you can see Cantrip works during any save roll. Dragon Attacks are combination rolls that include any normal or special icons that work during a save roll. So you might say that Cantrip will not work because it's a Unique result. But if you read the section on Unique results, you see that they are the same as Special results, except in the case where more than one player is rolling. So the net result is that Cantrips will work during a Dragon Attack.
| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | | -Does the Stun SAI, reroll and count the new result also on any roll, or just a melee attack where it applies? |
Rules on Stun: | rules wrote: | | During a melee attack, choose up to four health-worth of units in the defending army to be stunned unless each targeted unit immediately rolls a maneuver. Target units that fail their avoidance roll cannot be rolled until the end of your turn. Roll this unit again and apply the new result as well. |
No where in the rule on Stun does it say anything about any roll other than a melee attack. Therefore, it has no effect during other rolls. That would include the re-rolling effect.
| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | | -DO SAIs that function "during a save roll", function as saves in a dragon attack because it is a "combination roll" of sorts? |
See above about Cantrip. No "of sorts" about it. A dragon attack is a Combination roll. See the definition in the glossary about combination rolls, and you'll see dragon attack specifically mentioned.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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piMaster
rare
Stockholder
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:06 pm GMT Post subject: Re: Misc Rules Questions |
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| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | | -Horde roll, what really counts there? Move, Fly, ID, Trample, Wayfare, Create Fireminions, (i.e. those that are during ANY roll) anything else?? Teleport, etc.?? Anything that counts in a maneuver roll?? |
All of the following count during a maneuver roll: ID, maneuver icons, Create Fireminions, Dragonmaster Logo, Dragonhunter Logo, Elevate, Firewalking, Fly, Rend, Teleport, Trample, and Wayfare.
| Quote: | | -Do terrain effects affect individual rolls of units in an army occupying a given terrain? |
No. Same with armies with minor terrains in them.
| Quote: | | -Does Cantrip apply during a Dragon roll (i.e. to purchase saves or hit an opponent who may have summoned the dragon??) |
Yes.
| Quote: | | -Does the Stun SAI, reroll and count the new result also on any roll, or just a melee attack where it applies? |
Stun only applies during a melee attack. SAIs only count for the rolls that are listed for them.
| Quote: | | -DO SAIs that function "during a save roll", function as saves in a dragon attack because it is a "combination roll" of sorts? |
Yes. Since you are looking for save results during a dragon attack, any SAI that functions during a save roll functions during a dragon attack.
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"Everything Brad said is correct." - Chuck Pint |
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piMaster
rare
Stockholder
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:13 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Maybe we should make a Rules FAQ topic on here to answer alot of these types of questions (like the FAQ section at the back of the DCM). It should be locked and stickied. Then, we could have one post per topic (i.e. the first post would be about setup, next post about turn sequence, next post about inital effects phase, etc.). |
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:27 pm GMT Post subject: |
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If you can organize it, I'll sticky it when it's ready.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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piMaster
rare
Stockholder
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:42 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| chuckpint wrote: | | If you can organize it, I'll sticky it when it's ready. |
Oh great, another one of those "he who complains is assigned to fix it" situations. 
Well, it won't be ready overnight. I'll let you know. |
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Raven Bloodeyes
uncommon
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 576
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:30 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Okay, some more miscellany....
First, the phrasing of Stun should probably be changed to match that of Rend and Double Strike then, as they use a ; and indicate if it applies it is rerolled, whereas the phrasing for rerolling stun is different and in its own sentence. Hence, my question in the first place (though I get it now, it might help to clarify it in the rules)
Second, two questions on Reserves and SAIs:
Ferry and Fire-walking say they move units to any other terrain, implying they have to be a a terrain to function. Teleport, however, says to any terrain. Thus it can Teleport be used from the Reserves, while Ferry and Firewalking have no effect??
Am I assuming correctly that things on "any action" or "any non-maneuver roll" work in the reserves, like Regenerate, Sneak Attack, Wild Growth, Illusion, or Galeforce?
Second, a magic Value Question:
-What is the magic value of Dragonlords and Dragonmasters? 0-they're special; 2-due to the one Cantrip face; 3-Cantrip face + logo as a 2 point ID??
'Cuz in the promo section only the Bronze Medallion says anything about a magic value and its not clear if the special magic value determination for monsters and artifacts applies to these promo dice, and if it does how does one count the logo (for those for whom it counts as a 2 pt ID).
Thanks again,
Jason |
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:11 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | Okay, some more miscellany....
First, the phrasing of Stun should probably be changed to match that of Rend and Double Strike then, as they use a ; and indicate if it applies it is rerolled, whereas the phrasing for rerolling stun is different and in its own sentence. Hence, my question in the first place (though I get it now, it might help to clarify it in the rules) |
The problem is that Rend and Double Strike produce normal results and then are rerolled. Stun produces a special effect, and then is rerolled. So it's impossible to state it as the other two without a huge run-on sentence. Notice the next SAI from Stun, Summon Dragon. We used the semi-colon there since the special effect description was short.
The real key here is the resolution type. Any icon that is "Instant" is a reroll effect. But it's only rerolled if it's results apply to the current roll.
| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | Second, two questions on Reserves and SAIs:
Ferry and Fire-walking say they move units to any other terrain, implying they have to be a a terrain to function. Teleport, however, says to any terrain. Thus it can Teleport be used from the Reserves, while Ferry and Firewalking have no effect??
Am I assuming correctly that things on "any action" or "any non-maneuver roll" work in the reserves, like Regenerate, Sneak Attack, Wild Growth, Illusion, or Galeforce? |
Yes, except for Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack kills units in an opposing army. An opposing army, is any enemy army at the same terrain as your army. Since there are no opposing armies during a reserve roll, it has no target to effect.
Of course, magic items and artifacts do not work in reserves, ever. So SAIs that are only on magic items cannot happen. Amazons' SAIs only work in reserves if the SAI works during a missile roll.
| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | Second, a magic Value Question:
-What is the magic value of Dragonlords and Dragonmasters? 0-they're special; 2-due to the one Cantrip face; 3-Cantrip face + logo as a 2 point ID??
'Cuz in the promo section only the Bronze Medallion says anything about a magic value and its not clear if the special magic value determination for monsters and artifacts applies to these promo dice, and if it does how does one count the logo (for those for whom it counts as a 2 pt ID). |
The rule about magic value only applies to monsters and artifacts as clearly stated in the section on "Decide Total Force Size". Bronze Medallions are a special case, as is the Vampire. Otherwise, all dice with at least one magic icons or magic-producing SAI (i.e. Cantrip) has a magic value equal to it's health.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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piMaster
rare
Stockholder
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:33 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| chuckpint wrote: | | Amazons' SAIs only work in reserves if the SAI works during a missile roll. |
There is one exception: Amazon Cantrips do not work in reserves when the Amazons are making a reserve missile attack. |
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Raven Bloodeyes
uncommon
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 576
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:26 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Wow! You guys are quick.....and thorough! Thanks so much!
And yeah that's makes sense with Stun, it might be nice to mention with the Instant resolution type in the general SAI discussion that those are only rerolled if the initial roll applies in the given situation, but YMMV
-Jason |
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DEEPBLUEB2
monster
Stockholder
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 7894
Location: Des Plaines, IL
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:54 am GMT Post subject: |
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| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | | -Horde roll, what really counts there? |
One thing that is overlooked sometimes,
Group Monsters can reroll if their ID is rolled during the maneuver (Horde) roll.
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Raven Bloodeyes
uncommon
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 576
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:52 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Just some more misc. rules questions:
What combination rolls are there in total now?
-All I could find were 1) Dragon attack rolls, 2) Tidal Wave avoidance, 3) Volcanic Eruption avoidance, 4) Hug, and other single unit "combo" avoidance type rolls.
-On a related note, not having a DCM, what were the last rules or optional rules people used for charging? (maybe the wrong place, but I got a laundry list of questions  )
When are Trumpet and Elevate resolved?? As army doubling modifiers? As unit doubling modifiers handled "immediately", and thus before subtraction to the army?
When does Necromantic Wave resolve, (other count X as Y's are racial, but this is a spell)?? Before or after subtraction? For example, could Decay subtract from the "magic->melee" results of this army or is the counting as melee after the subtraction modifier(s) is applied?
-on a related note: Can units double their magic on an ID roll if their colors match and then count this doubled number as melee if Necromantic Wave is on that army?
Thanks again guys!!
Jason |
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piMaster
rare
Stockholder
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:53 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | Just some more misc. rules questions:
What combination rolls are there in total now?
-All I could find were 1) Dragon attack rolls, 2) Tidal Wave avoidance, 3) Volcanic Eruption avoidance, 4) Hug, and other single unit "combo" avoidance type rolls. |
I believe that is all of them.
| Quote: | | -On a related note, not having a DCM, what were the last rules or optional rules people used for charging? (maybe the wrong place, but I got a laundry list of questions ) |
I'm not sure on that one. Sorry.
| Quote: | | When are Trumpet and Elevate resolved?? As army doubling modifiers? As unit doubling modifiers handled "immediately", and thus before subtraction to the army? |
Wilding, Trumpet, and Elevate are resolved when you apply unit modifiers (after resolving Special/Unique SAIs, but before resolving army modifiers).
| Quote: | | When does Necromantic Wave resolve, (other count X as Y's are racial, but this is a spell)?? Before or after subtraction? For example, could Decay subtract from the "magic->melee" results of this army or is the counting as melee after the subtraction modifier(s) is applied? |
Necromantic Wave would be applied when you apply army modifiers that add. You cannot apply Decay to magic results.
| Quote: | | -on a related note: Can units double their magic on an ID roll if their colors match and then count this doubled number as melee if Necromantic Wave is on that army? |
No, because IDs count for whatever you are rolling for. In a melee attack, IDs must be counted as melee results.
| Quote: | Thanks again guys!!
Jason |
No problem.
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"Everything Brad said is correct." - Chuck Pint |
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:02 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| piMaster wrote: | | Raven Bloodeyes wrote: |
On a related note, not having a DCM, what were the last rules or optional rules people used for charging? (maybe the wrong place, but I got a laundry list of questions ) |
I'm not sure on that one. Sorry. |
Not sure what you are asking here. If you are asking about the last rules changes for the DCM, I think I still have them. However, I am not sure I want to publish them for what I hope are obvious reasons. OK, I'll state my reasons. I want it to be clear that Dragon Dice only has one set of rules.
| piMaster wrote: | | Raven Bloodeyes wrote: | | When does Necromantic Wave resolve, (other count X as Y's are racial, but this is a spell)?? Before or after subtraction? For example, could Decay subtract from the "magic->melee" results of this army or is the counting as melee after the subtraction modifier(s) is applied? |
Necromantic Wave would be applied when you apply army modifiers that add. You cannot apply Decay to magic results. |
The Necromantic Wave is applied at the same time as racial abilities. And Decay would affect the melee results results, but not the magic results converted to melee. If a Dancing Lights was also cast on the army, it would affect the magic results, and therefore the final melee results. Let's take an example....
An army has the following spells cast on it: Dancing Lights, Decay (x3), and Necromantic Wave. It rolls for melee and gets the following results: 1 melee result, 7 magic results, 2 missile results, 4 save results, and 5 health of IDs.
The Decay would subtract 3 melee results, since the roll was for melee, the ID results would have to be counted as melee. So your total melee + ID results at this point is 3. Next the Dancing Lights would halve your magic results down to 3, and your missile results down to 1. Then you would convert your magic results to melee, giving you a total of 6 melee. Since you are rolling for melee, missile and save results are ignored. Your total melee is 6.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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ddicerc
rare
Public Relations Director
Esteemed Author
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 3238
Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:53 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Not sure what you are asking here. If you are asking about the last rules changes for the DCM, I think I still have them. |
I have the Revised Rules and some of the DCM changes posted on my web site in the historical section. I strongly remind everyone that I post these for historical purposes only; these rules are no longer official for any event. However, if you want to see how the game was played "back then," go right ahead. I do not yet have the original rules folder up, but hope to at some time this summer.
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The Diceman's Gaming Pages: http://ddicerc.weebly.com
2014-2015 U.S. National Champion
(Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...) |
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