SFR, Inc.

[jmonnett]

Yo,

[jmonnett]

Here are spells that cause a problem with a Haunting army:
Summon Dragonkin
Airy Acquisition
Call of the Wild
Camouflage
Path
Leaving
Open Grave
Reforge Item

The other spells either effect terrain, deal damage, modify results or add saves. (or resurrect, but there's no DUA during a Haunt so they don't work) All easy to do even within the context of a Haunting army.

Summon Dragonkin, Airy Acquisition, Call of the Wild, Path and Reforge Item all add (or could add) components to the casting army. The rules say that when a magically constructed army's (MCA) time is up, all the units in it go to the DUA. It's not much of a stretch to say that applies to units added to the MCA via magic. Similarly, units removed from the MCA would not go back to the DUA when the MCA does, since they're no longer in the MCA.
A quick check of the rules didn't find anything that says magic items can't go to the DUA. I suppose if they did, though, there'd be no way to get them back. Dragonkin, of course, stay where they are, until the MCA goes away, when they are forced back to the summoning pool.

For Open Grave and Leaving, it's a question of which spell's wording takes precedence: Haunt ("Bury any of your units killed during this melee action...") or Open Grave ("...any units taken as casualties immediately go to the reserve area rather than the DUA.") and Leaving (same wording except "any other of your armies at a terrain" instead of "the reserve area")?
Looks like Haunt's wording, explicitly saying units killed get buried, trumps that of OG and Leaving, and therefore it's of no use for a Haunting army to 'Trip in either of those spells.

So the real problem is Camouflage. It says "only melee effects can affect the target unit..." (Fade allows magic to affect the Faded unit, and Hide only prevents the Hidden unit from being targeted by magic, which has already happened if it's Haunting.)
Does this wording act as a shield against the MCA going away? Could it be argued that the Camouflaged unit is part of the MCA and therefore goes where it goes?

Hmm... Needs pondering. Or a ruling from on high, I guess.
This is just my interpretation, of course. I could be wrong.

Any thoughts? Or rulings? Who has the final say around here, anyway?

-John

[piMaster]

Generally, Chuck Pint has the final say.

That sentence I quoted from the rules was put there in order to avoid all of the complicated rulings and situations you are referring to John. I asked a few of the same questions myself many moons ago.

Basically, a magically constructed army is a one-trick pony. It appears, does its one thing, and disappears. A magically constructed army is not a "real" army, but rather a collection of dead units that temporarily gets psuedo-army status so it can make a melee attack. Thus, you cannot add a living unit to a haunting army because its not really an army.

Perhaps it should not be called an army at all, thus eliminating this long list of rules for what it can do/not do. Instead of "magically constucted army" (or "haunting army"), call it a "magically constructed attack force" (or "haunting attack force"). Since Stoneskin does not target an attack force, you cannot put a Stoneskin on it. Of course, you could not use Nightmoves on it then either, but I'm okay with that.

[DEEPBLUEB2]

After haunt is done....
Do the units that get buried get a chance to use the undead racial ability..
burial resistance?

[piMaster]

[jmonnett]

[jmonnett]

A better simpler idea:
Amateur hack version of Haunt, v 2.0
"Target an enemy army anywhere. Roll the units in your DUA and tally normal melee results. Inflict that much damage on the target army. The target army may roll for saves. This spell may only be cast once per magic action."
Potent, but simple.

v. 2.1
Add: "The target army may then be rolled to generate normal melee results. Roll the units in your DUA again. Subtract any save results from your opponent's melee result total. Bury a number of health of units equal to the remaining melee results."

Almost the same effect as the original Haunt, but simpler. And made somewhat more potent with Honor the Dead, but so what? No need to be monkeying with MCAs or worrying about Cantrips. The wording indubitably needs to be polished. Perhaps the cost would need to be adjusted, too.

Thoughts?

-John

[piMaster]

Your version 2.1 is similar to the Haunt spell, but lacks its "spirit" and flavor.

All we really need to do is clarify the attributes of a magically constructed army and leave the wording of the Haunt spell alone. How about:

Magically Constructed Army: The situation caused by a Haunt spell, where the units in a player's DUA become an army to conduct a melee action. This "magically constructed" army (MCA) does not gain any of the attributes associated with an active army. Spells that target an army cannot target a MCA. Units within a MCA cannot be promoted or demoted. A MCA cannot contain dragonkin or magical items/artifacts/medallions. A MCA cannot use spells/SAIs to resurrect units/items (i.e. Spark of Life or Regenerate), nor can it use spells/SAIs the move units/items into or out of the MCA (i.e. Call of the Wild or Airy Acquisition). If a unit in a MCA is sent away from the MCA (i.e. Scent of Fear spell or Roar SAI), then the units go back to the DUA instead.

When the Haunt spell is resolved, the units within the player's DUA are moved to the location of the targeted enemy army (and are thus no longer in the DUA). The units within the MCA get all the racial benefits they enjoyed during life. Note that the units within the MCA are still dead, and thus do not intermix with that player's living units at any time. Since the units within the MCA are not in the DUA, spells that target a unit may be cast upon units in a MCA.

Once the melee action (attack/counter attack) is completed, the spell is finished. The units in the MCA are either buried or returned to the DUA. A MCA cannot sustain any action past the melee action.

[chuckpint]

[piMaster]

[chuckpint]

[jmonnett]

I would like to start by thanking Brad and Chuck for helping me understand this.

[jmonnett]

[Autpost]

Two more questions about leaving the MCA:

1.) What if a unit leaves the MCA (because of Ferry) & joins another army and is later during the counterattack killed with a Lightning Strike? Is this unit buried (because it has been in the MCA before) or just sent back into the MCA? (The description just says: "During the spell, any “killed” units from this army goto the BUA." So units which have been, but are no longer in the MCA do not go to the BUA(?).)

2.) A Phoenix in the MCA is buried, rolls his RftA and goes to the reserve. When Haunt ends, what happens with him? Since he is labeled as "has been in the MCA" is he dead again or may he stay because the MCA-effect has expired?

[DEEPBLUEB2]

I would think there is no escape from the MCA label.

[chuckpint]

In your first case, your mistake is that a unit that leaves the place the MCA was sent to, does not join any other army. It is still part of the MCA, it's just at a different place. So why use a Ferry (or similar SAI or magic)? Simple, if your MCA is going to get wiped out on the counter-attack, it allows some of the units to escape from that damage. They still go back to the DUA after the spell is over. If for any reason, a unit that is part of the MCA is killed, it goes into the BUA (Undead and Phoenix still get to roll to try and avoid it).

In the second case, a Phoenix is always a special case. If it is killed or buried it gets to roll, and if it comes up with RftA, it is back alive and in reserves. This SAI overrides as a special case the rest of the rules about units in the MCA returning to the DUA or going into the BUA.
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[DEEPBLUEB2]

If the Phoenix can escape the MCA..perhaps the Undead can as well...

The MCA army attacks...
the opposing army rolls a counter...
the attacking army chooses 4 health of Undead...
which get killed...
using the undead burial resistance
the undead units are now in the DUA

Now the opposing army counter attacks...
can the MCA army if it has UNdead in it step damage?
and if so are these new step damaged units free from the MCA?

They might be, as if you step damage during a dragon attack,
the new step damage units do not need to save against any remaining damage from the dragon attack.

[chuckpint]

No the Undead cannot escape. If they are "killed" they get a roll vs burial. If they save, they stay in the MCA, if they don't save, they go into the BUA. At the end of the spell, all units either end up back in the DUA or BUA, with the possible exception of a Phoenix (as noted above). There are never any units in the DUA during a Haunt spell. They are in the MCA (which also as noted can get scattered at different places) or in the BUA. At the end of Haunt any MCA units go back to the DUA.

So while the Undead have the advantage of Burial Resistance during a Haunt, they do not get any form of stepped damage.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[riolis]

Autpost
You would still need an Undead mage or 3 with those Treefolk or Feral. No way to get Hauting otherwise.
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[chuckpint]