SFR, Inc.

[chuckpint]

Ok, I put off the discussion of the novice tournament until the demo rules were done. So now it's time to talk about the novice tournament rules.

First thing I want to say, is that SFR would like to have the novice tournament use a 2-player starter or equivalent. But of course, we don't want to be running a Sealed Box event either. So the question is, how to pare down the rules for a novice event, but not change the game? We don't want to dumb down the game, but at the same time we need it to be simpler.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[riolis]

Well I'll go out on a limb here Chuck, looking at the dice from the demo rules, they are all fairly common, so worst came to worst maybe dice from the reps overly large collections could be used. I mean with a good inventory count and dice sign out sheet, how hard would it be to pull together 4-8 armies with that many dice? Not bad really and since most players are like me and have hundreds of extra dice, even if 1 or 2 get miss placed no big loss. Hook-um with a good game, prize the winner with a starter of the race he/she played, and sell some more starters to the other players to kick off their collections. Either that or set up per packed demo kits and novice packs.
_________________
Got to love wolves, overwelming numbers, act as a team, Nature ready made army.
We walk a fine line between dream and reality. The border we dance upon is known as insanity!
It is through the beans of java that my hands aquire the shakes to roll Dragon Dice.
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[DEEPBLUEB2]

If using the Swamp Stalkers,
Try adding a Crocosaur.
With the reroll abilty,
it is a fun die for a new player,
and they get to see how a powerful roll can change the game.

[DEEPBLUEB2]

If you don't include units with Cantrip,
it will less complicate rules.
While this does take away a big gameplay function,
it does simplify the gameplay.

[cliffwiggs]

[chuckpint]

Ok, maybe I wasn't clear here. The Demo rules and the Novice rules are now two different things. The demo rules will use specific dice to simplify things. But for the Novice tournaments, we must have the option of using sealed 2-player starters. Since SFR supplies the dice for the Novice tournaments, we don't usually actually open starters, but instead have bags of dice that are "equivalent" to a starter. So the dice will be random. So that is the basis of the dice used. Please assume that.

I also don't want to have SAIs doing something different that what they do in the full rules. Spells also have to do exactly the same thing, but we can go with a subset of the spells.

The idea is a simpler game for Novices, but still being Dragon Dice. In other words, they can take the rules they learn for Novice and simply build on those rules to get to the full rules.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

[DEEPBLUEB2]

Perhaps each bag could have a setup chart for the dice included.
The setup chart would be designed to help a novice setup their army in the most strategic way.
It would not be mandatory,
but it may just be the thing a new player needs to help them take advantage of the dice they are presented with.

I bring this up as I saw players in sealed box not sure how to setup their dice.

[chuckpint]

One thing I don't have a problem with doing: Declare that only one of the 4 starters be used for Novice events. For a couple of reasons I'm not going go into on the open list, Undead/Feral would be my first choice. Some of the reasons I will go into, Undead are one of the simpler races if you don't count racial abilities. And those two races can be pretty even if you don't have racial spells.

But no, we are not going "rig" the sets of dice. Like I said, I want to have the option to use a sealed box if possible. One thought on that score, we could tell the players to simply pick one race. Going with only 18 health not only makes for quicker games (Novice tournaments are usually only 2 hours, not 4), but it also makes for faster start-ups.

As for not being sure how to setup, that's the whole point of re-writing the rules. We are trying to make it simple for them to get started. We also as I've said, want quick games. But we want to stay closer to the full rules than we have in the past.

I have no problem with removing the racial abilities and making dragon breath the same as ivory breath. If we do anything to simplify the rules, we will need (at the end of the novice rules) to point out what we've done to change the rules from the full rules. The idea is still to move them from the novice rules to the full rules as quickly as possible.

Next discussion would be about Intermediate Tournaments. I'd like to bring those back....
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[chuckpint]

Ok, this discussion has stalled to a halt. So far we've got:

Dice from a 2-player starter (maybe only one?)

No racial abilities.

Dragons have ivory breath and are colorless.

Colorless magic (racial like the demo rules???)

SAIs the same as the main rules, but only a subset due to being a subset of the dice.

Suggested starting layout for the dice to make for a faster start and game.

Anything else?
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

I'm not sure how much I like the colorless racial spells because you more easily run into balance issues, but if the demo is fixed like that then novice should be to.

we can goto colored basic spells in the intermediate rules.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[DEEPBLUEB2]

Since this is a Novice Tournament,
I think all the starters should be available.
If this were a Demo,
then maybe only one starter would be needed.
Right away I think a Novice player needs to have choices,
to win a tournament of limited choices won't feel as good.
Knowing you won over other races will give the Novice a sense of triumph.

Having a favorite race tends to stay with a player,
so they need to be exposed to as much variety as possible in the beginning.

[DEEPBLUEB2]

Racial Spells within the Novice Realm:

Even though Wind Walk is not a racial spell,
it is a very common spell used in advanced play.

So the point is,
a Novice player does not need to be aware of racial spells.
If a player likes wind walk,
then they will like Coral Elves.
The attaction to wind walk will be associated to a Race.
(I'm not sure Standing Stones is functional in Novice)
So the main thing here is that the intensity a player has will later develop
into racial thinking.
So I think there should be some differences in race, as to what spells certain races can cast versus other races.

[DEEPBLUEB2]

So I'm waiting to see if I'm even close before adding anything else, as I have been way off before with this topic.

[chuckpint]

If you want examples of the spells, look at the demo rules.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[DEEPBLUEB2]

No I don't think a Novice should be using colorless magic.

Works fine for the Demo though.

add "rock to Mud"

and "Lightning strike"

But separate the races for Novice,
then they can concentrate on one strategy.
So first four races choose one.

Maybe a random box,
and the 2 players play out of the box....
you know, 2 player like the box says.


Skip the racial abilties, so spells will be the focus.


In a nutshell....
no racial abilties
use colored spells (no doubling)
add lightning strike and rock to mud
one race ..players split a starter box
(standing stones allowed since that might be in the starter)
colorless dragon breath and dragon summoning
SAIs the same as the main rules, but only a subset due to being a subset of the dice.

[DEEPBLUEB2]

How to split the box:
the first thing is there will be 4 types of terrains in every box.
Although there would be no racial terrain abilities or doubling magic,
the type of terrains would be the difference.
So....
Box 1:
Coral elves get the coastland
lava elves get the highland


Box 2
Dwarves get highland
Goblins get the swamplands

To determine which race a player starts with?
Random

Each player then can roll their respected terrain to get first choice at the secondary terrain.

[DEEPBLUEB2]

Dragons:
You may consider allowing Dragons to fight,
as there should be ivory dragons in the mix.
The casting cost would be colorless for all dragons,
and dragon breath would be colorless,
but having dragons fight might help keep 4 dragons from piling up.
I would also suggest the ivory dragon terrain rule.
It is not that complicated.

This gives some reason for different colored dragons.
Besides the ivory dragon is featured on the Starter Box.


OR....

You may just want to make ALL dragons colorless and Don't fight,
However,
Only the Ivory Dragon cannot be moved.


So how to Divide up the Dragons?

If colorless it is not that critical.

I would give the first dragon choice to the person who does Not chose the secondary terrain to be fair.

[DEEPBLUEB2]

That should do it for me, until I hear any comments.

[DEEPBLUEB2]

One other comment:
at first you might think that red has a disadvatage,
by not including a large spell,
like dancing lights.
dancing light might be too difficult for the Novice, as it deals with halving.
Also it may slow the game.
So....
by not having dancing lights,
the red magic won't be restrictecd.

This makes the Dwarves a Dragon threat.
Spark of Life, Colorless Dragons,
rock to mud, stoneskin, path won't be limited.