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dproman common Rep Dragon
Joined: 16 Mar 2008 Posts: 326 Location: Vancouver, WA

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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:01 pm GMT Post subject: DD Draft Champion & GS13 |
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Hello All,
Saturday night (3-26-11), at Gamestorm 13 in Vancouver WA., we held a Dragon Dice draft tournament. We had a mixture of new and veteran players which slowed down the initial draft process. Future drafts should be intermediate to advanced players, but we still had a great time and turnout. We had a final total of 8 players, I had to pull out of the tournament because we couldn't apply the 3 judge rule. We also had 2 other players who were apart of the draft, but had to leave after the first round, so they returned Sunday to the demo table to learn how to use their new favorite game! (They had discussed their commitment with me prior to the start of the tournament, so I just paired them up in the first round to keep it simple with the rest of the pairings. First each player opened their sealed starter. 1 person had a beholder and another had a dracolich. I deemed it fair to let them keep that 1 dice for their collection and replaced it with a common monster (they were new players/collectors). We then sorted out the dice according to health, size and category. We (the SBRG) decided that the best and most fair distribution would be to allow players to pick the equivalent of a 2-player starter (2M, 2R, 6U, 10C). Looking at the dice from all of the starters, I don't think we had any over 50% mages issues. We drew numbers to determine order. Dice were chosen in order, starting with player 1 thru 10, then 10 thru 1, and so on until all army dice were picked. Dragons and then Terrains were chosen (it might be they other way around). Over all it was a great experiment in world of Dragon Dice! There were 3 rounds to the tournament. We had a clear winner---eggsaladsandwich! Dennis ran the table with his mostly Goblin army (he could give you a better description of it). He deferred his prizes to the 2nd place winner and he also donated his first place army to one of our new DD players! (Hopefully we'll see them at a future SBRG meetup!
As for the rest of Gamestorm 13, all I can say is WOW! Unbelievable! We (Jace, Kaitlin, and I) ran demos Thursday 3p-7p, Friday 9a-6p, Saturday 9a-6p, and Sunday 9a-4p.
Thursday, the demo table (which was located in the boardgames area this year), was very busy, with 1-2 demos running consistently.
Friday was over whelming at times, with a couple of people resorting to just grabbing a promotional flyer (Thank You Steve for making that available!), and then trying to return later. Between Thursday & Friday, we did more demos than I had done in the previous 2 Gamestorms combined!
Saturday, it was surprisingly slower, most likely due to other major event & tournament schedules. The slight break was enjoyed but the time of course was filled with pickup games. So DD was very visible at all times!
Sunday, was another non-stop busy day! (Jamie from Guardian Games, who is also one of our newest members in the SBRG) helped with demos on Sunday for which I gave him a bronze medallion for his time.
All in All, a very exciting and positive convention. Gamestorm 13 broke its registration/attendance record, over 1000 attendees!
002.JPG
There is also good news for the city of Vancouver WA., we will be getting a new game store in 2 weeks! Dice Age Games! I met the owner at GS, and he says we definitely have a home! I don't mind the drive to Portland to support Guardian Games (which is a very proud supporter of DD and the SBRG), but it will sure be nice to have a store a little closer.
Thank You to all in attendance, all who helped demo, Cliff W., Steve B., Chuck P. & SFR Inc. for your support in making Gamestorm 13 a tremendous success and revival!
Dave _________________ Rep (director) |
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Jace Thomas common
Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Centralia, WA

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:56 am GMT Post subject: |
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A few comments on the Dragon Dice Draft-
First and foremost, I should let it be known that player satisfaction is my #1 priority(above all new players, as I live to see this game flourish), and I made sure to follow up with as many players as I could after the dragon dice events. I wanted to make sure that new players not only had the maximum enjoyment possible with the games at the events, but also I want to understand their feelings so that I know how to better present Dragon Dice.
One thing that I found out unanimously was that the dragon dice draft was a huge success - I myself loved it, and the other players I had interviewed vastly enjoyed the social aspect. Indeed, I think the general consensus was that the draft itself was more fun than the game! Which makes a lot of sense to me, as dragon dice is very satisfying to collect and the draft was almost like a mega dice swap meet! I for one expect to see many more drafts to come at future conventions
Talking to my fellow participants, however, it was clear that a few bugs needed working out. First, almost every other player (including every new player with experience with draft events from other collectible games) believes that taking the rare dice out of the draft pool is a major mistake. Sure, the person who bought the pack deserves the rare, but everybody participating in a draft do so for a big reason - to be able to buy one pack but pick its contents from a pool of many. Outside influence including replacing any draft piece really neuters the player's freedom to choose. The essence of the draft is the freedom of choice - should I take the really rare/cool die so that I can add it to my collection, or should I pick the die that will mesh with my strategy and help me win the prize? Every draft in other games is handled like that, and I propose that the dragon dice draft be too.
The other problem players had was the draw order - we basically drew numbers and that was the picking order. 12321 which seemed fair on paper, but after the fact it became clear that whoever went first would have first pick of the monsters and the rares (since each player only gets 2 of each) and in a game like dragon dice, those are VERY important pieces. I know that its the first draft and we still have to work out the bugs, and this is one of them. I know it might bring up a time issue, but randomly re-issuing drawing numbers every round for the monsters and rares would most certainly be more fair- and it would also add in a new layer of excitement for the players as they hope they draw he best number each round!
Other than those two issues I believe he draft was the #1 most enjoyed event - *definitely* something to add to the menu at GenCon! And hey, think of it this way - other collectible games do drafts all the time, like magic the gathering, and in fact a lot of players are addicted to the format. It could be an inexpensive way to draw new players without having to make new product - new event, old dice!
Thanks for rolling with me at GameStorm  _________________ Alea iacta est. |
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MOEboin dragonsteed
Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Posts: 59 Location: Auburn, WA

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:55 am GMT Post subject: |
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| Jace Thomas wrote: |
Thanks for rolling with me at GameStorm  |
You're welcome. I wanted to say that I feel much the same way Jace does about the draft having participated in it myself. At first I thought it would seem fair for the person that pulls a rare to keep it, but after thinking about it and how typical drafts are run I can see how that doesn't seem right. Really players need to understand that they might have a rare die in their starter but that doesn't mean they are going to leave with it. That is the fun and randomness of a draft. And just like what Jace said, "Do you want the rare for its collectible aspects or would you rather pick a monster that works better for your strategy?" I don't see why taking out the rare monster creates a better draft than leaving it in so I think in future drafts it makes sense to only play with the dice from the starter and no swapping of dice should take place. It seems only fair. |
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cliffwiggs SFR Treasurer Chief Wheedler SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 10794 Location: Cumming, GA - USA

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:26 am GMT Post subject: |
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| MOEboin wrote: | | Really players need to understand that they might have a rare die in their starter but that doesn't mean they are going to leave with it. | That was your problem. In a draft people shouldn't have any expectation of owning a starter. People sit down to a big pool of dice.
so next time, just open the starters for them or tell them, this isn't your starter, you are just opening and sorting it for me. _________________ Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99 |
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Dr. Oliver Cross dragonmount
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 Posts: 26 Location: Aloha, Oregon

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:47 am GMT Post subject: |
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Speaking as one of the players who got one of the dice in question, (the beholder, specifically, which I promptly traded to Jace for nearly every Scalder he had in his trade stock), I agree. It should have been added to the dice pool, as should the dracolich.
Now the dracolich my fiancée got the previous evening in the sealed box tournament very much should have stayed hers, and did, but for all that I got a lifetime's supply of Scalders out of it, the beholder was part of the random stock, so it should have been added to the random stock.
Besides which, given that a beholder hit the board, I'd probably have played Lava Elves rather than let it go to someone else, at least once I was informed of the rarity of the thing! As it is, I took amazons and dwarves. Mostly amazons, on the theory that most people wouldn't try the troublesome creatures in a format where they couldn't control what they got. I was nearly right, although I ended up facing another amazon/dwarf army in the second round. The words "all-arrow cluster#>(%" come to mind.... |
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cliffwiggs SFR Treasurer Chief Wheedler SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 10794 Location: Cumming, GA - USA

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:59 am GMT Post subject: |
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| Dr. Oliver Cross wrote: | | I got a lifetime's supply of Scalders out of it |
and how many Scalders will last you a lifetime?  _________________ Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99 |
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Dr. Oliver Cross dragonmount
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 Posts: 26 Location: Aloha, Oregon

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:07 am GMT Post subject: |
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Okay, you've got me. I'm addicted. I mainline Flaming Arrows. MUST... HAVE... MORE... SCALDERS!
Still, this should last me long enough to get my new army off the ground. Actually, scratch that. I can't get them off the ground. No ferry SAIs.... _________________ Have Scalders, will travel. (If I can afford it.) |
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dproman common Rep Dragon
Joined: 16 Mar 2008 Posts: 326 Location: Vancouver, WA

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:10 pm GMT Post subject: DD Draft Champion & GS13 |
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In regards to the 2 sealed tournaments:
Fridays sealed box should have been handled differently. We had a 50/50 mix of new players and experienced players. The 2 should have been separated or at very least more closely monitored. I was the only judge for a tournament of 12. I was notified the next day about alleged "cheating" in the tournament. Summoning Dragons from reserves, for example. I thought that the experienced players would police themselves and understand that this sealed starter event had become a "teaching" tournament, and thus behave accordingly. I was wrong. Most did understand this, however, it only takes one to ruin it. That individual will not be allowed to participate in novice events that I host, only expert ones!
Saturdays sealed draft should have been different also.
| Quote: | | taking the rare dice out of the draft pool is a major mistake. |
Yes I agree, looking back it was the wrong decision. I take responsibility for it.
| Quote: | | The other problem players had was the draw order - we basically drew numbers and that was the picking order. 12321 which seemed fair on paper |
I didn't like the 12321 idea period! I gave in to the consensus and pressure of the other gaming savvy players, big mistake. Other people trying to run the tournament I was hosting, not very cool! Very frustrating! But again, my responsibility. | Quote: | | randomly re-issuing drawing numbers every round |
No. I think after every pick. That way we could have 26 rounds of picking dice!
Also, I feel that the draft format should be expert/experienced players only! It would go much quicker that way.
If I'm still involved with DD next year, I will not be running any tournaments. I'm too inexperienced and incompetent to run them. I would much rather host novice events similar to the ones held at GenCon instead.
The best part about Gamestorm is, that once registered, anyone can host/run an event or tournament. So everyone please feel free to run/host DD events next year, that way I'll have an opportunity to participate.
If there are any more comments about how these tournaments were conducted, please PM me.
Dave _________________ Rep (director) |
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chuckpint White Dragon SFR President Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 9187 Location: Evanston, IL

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:42 pm GMT Post subject: Re: DD Draft Champion & GS13 |
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| dproman wrote: | | If I'm still involved with DD next year, I will not be running any tournaments. I'm too inexperienced and incompetent to run them. I would much rather host novice events similar to the ones held at GenCon instead. |
Dave, I think you are beating yourself up way too much. Judging by the comments from the new players, people had fun. That's the important thing. We all make mistakes, best thing is to learn from them. We hadn't tried this format before, so you were blazing new ground. Can't blame you for not getting it perfect the first time. _________________ You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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Dr. Oliver Cross dragonmount
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 Posts: 26 Location: Aloha, Oregon

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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:43 pm GMT Post subject: |
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You'd better still be involved! Your incredible skills, both at running tournaments and at teaching new players, are the reason I play. Please, don't leave! _________________ Have Scalders, will travel. (If I can afford it.) |
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MOEboin dragonsteed
Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Posts: 59 Location: Auburn, WA

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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:22 am GMT Post subject: Re: DD Draft Champion & GS13 |
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| dproman wrote: |
If I'm still involved with DD next year, I will not be running any tournaments.
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What do you mean if? You have to stay involved there is no room for discussion. You really did an excellent job running the tournaments. I felt like we (as players) were in safe, capable hands. I can understand if being judge and running demos all day took a lot out of you though. |
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shoesan uncommon
Joined: 22 Nov 2005 Posts: 641 Location: PA

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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:45 am GMT Post subject: Re: DD Draft Champion & GS13 |
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| dproman wrote: |
If I'm still involved with DD next year, I will not be running any tournaments. I'm too inexperienced and incompetent to run them. I would much rather host novice events similar to the ones held at GenCon instead. Dave |
If you are still involved with DD next year? Are you kidding me?! Reading all the posts from all the people in that area you have brought into the game makes me wish I lived closer to Vancouver! You are obviously doing something special up there. It would be a shame to see that slip away... _________________ Shoe |
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cliffwiggs SFR Treasurer Chief Wheedler SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 10794 Location: Cumming, GA - USA

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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:58 am GMT Post subject: Re: DD Draft Champion & GS13 |
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| chuckpint wrote: | | Can't blame you for not getting it perfect the first time. | Agreed, the judge of an event isn't a deity. if people wanna cheat, they will cheat. We've had experienced people come into intermediate tournaments and clean out all the new players. We've had people make honest and not to honest mistakes. We've had people who misunderstood or just were not aware of certain rules get seriously pissed. you can't control it and you can't take it personally.
For example - The sealed plus Acolyte plus DKIN event at Gencon. I was most responsible for that and the event itself was just unworkable. so we don't play it again and we move on to try something new.
This year the ForestFire event might backfire, but if it doesn't work, I can always put a draft even in its place for 2012  _________________ Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99 |
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DEEPBLUEB2 monster Stockholder
Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 7894 Location: Des Plaines, IL

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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:21 am GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This year the ForestFire event might backfire |
hmmmm sounds like a treefolk-firewalker
my last year Worlds was called Reign Forest Fire.
It was Eldarim/Treefolk/Firewalker-Scalder
=============
A word for Dave:
Dave,
passion also brings pain,
it can bring joy as well.
hang in there tough and take the good with the bad,
in the end, the good will always prevail. |
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Jace Thomas common
Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Centralia, WA

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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:40 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Dave,
I agree with everyone else here! Don't beat yourself up, you don't deserve it. One of life's lessons is to control the things you can, and be at peace with the things you can't. As far as other players misbehaving in tournaments, you can't help that! It takes all kinds of people to make the world we live in, and you just have to take the good with the bad.
I hope you don't take my post as a negative list of gripes, that's not what I meant. It wasn't directed towards you at all, just a handful of my thoughts directed at SFR as a whole in regards to the draft format itself. I really want to see this format take off, it's a lot of fun! Which I think everyone else thought too. And each time the event is run it'll get a little bit better! Eventually we'll all know what we're doing and we can all play and. Have a good time  _________________ Alea iacta est. |
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eggsaladsandwich uncommon
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 519 Location: West Linn, OR.

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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:38 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Are you crazy Dave? You ran those tourneys with the utmost professionalism.I didnt see any intentional mistakes that could be called "Cheating", and I was keeping an eye on the games to my left and right. Cant imagine who, among the 12 participants, would intentionally cheat.As was said before, dont let this dissuade you from your much appreciated involvement in the game. I will plan to help out more next year, this year homelife was just a bit too busy for me(was lucky to get the time at the con at all).Keep on rolling the dice my brother!  _________________ "Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues |
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eggsaladsandwich uncommon
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 519 Location: West Linn, OR.

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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:42 pm GMT Post subject: |
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in reguards to draft stuff. I agree, in hindsight, the rare dice should have remained in the pool, sorry about advocating otherwise Dave, I share some of the responsibility for that.
As for the order of picking, maybe change it up for each Rarity, but not for each round of drafting, that would just take too long.my 2 cents.  _________________ "Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues |
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