 |
SFR, Inc.
Forums that relate to SFR products
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jedi.tony
dragonfoal
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 23
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
|
 Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:53 pm GMT Post subject: Elder Dragons Idea |
 |
|
I don't know if this has ever been discussed or thought up before, and forgive me if someone else had this idea before, but I always thought it would be cool to make something like Elder Dragons.
Maybe like a 20-sided die for each and you'd have to have special rules for summoning, maybe double or triple the cost of summoning a single dragon, or forcing you to sacrifice one or two dragons to summon one Elder Dragon.
Anyway, just an idea.
Tony. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
arcbat
common
Stockholder
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
Location: Dallas, TX
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:48 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| A 20-sided promo die would be SWEET!!!! Of course it would also have to be huge to accomodate all the dice art on its faces. But that's OK, it's a promo die - it can be huge. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddicerc
rare
Public Relations Director
Esteemed Author
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 3238
Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:08 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
We had an idea along those lines, using a 24-sided die. (Yes, they exist. I have one.) We came up with 2-headed, 2-element dragons. They would have twice the number of icons already on dragons, including two heads (jaws/breath). They can be summoned using any combination of the two colors to get the points of magic. They would do greater physical and breath damage. Each breath weapon would do different damage, depending on its color. In addition, they would be almost impossible to produce, since we envisioned each having 12 faces of each color rather than being mixed. But it was a fun idea while we played with it. 
_________________
Steve "DDice" Braun
The Diceman's Gaming Pages: http://ddicerc.weebly.com
2014-2015 U.S. National Champion
(Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deeghter
rare
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 2553
Location: Lost
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:48 am GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| DDiceRC wrote: | | We had an idea along those lines, using a 24-sided die. (Yes, they exist. I have one.) We came up with 2-headed, 2-element dragons. They would have twice the number of icons already on dragons, including two heads (jaws/breath). They can be summoned using any combination of the two colors to get the points of magic. They would do greater physical and breath damage. Each breath weapon would do different damage, depending on its color. In addition, they would be almost impossible to produce, since we envisioned each having 12 faces of each color rather than being mixed. But it was a fun idea while we played with it. |
This two-colored-mighty-dragon-idea has pretty much of everything I tried to suggest in the dragon discussion referring to larger army games!!! Great!!!
Why not produce it mixed instead using single colors for 2 x 12 sides and state the color of magic / effect by just using different ink colors on the certain 12 faces???
That would be much easier to produce and much cheaper, too!?
HOWZAT??
_________________
 Mr. Green Fan Club President
Forum Games Record: W 5 / L 10
www.dragondicer.com
SFR's German electro-punk-bluegrass artist Deeghter @@ My S&JW Memorial Space! Tanx, Steve! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
Chief Wheedler
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 10794
Location: Cumming, GA - USA
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 9:12 am GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| Die(ter) wrote: | | using different ink colors on the certain 12 faces??? |
I don't even want to know how much that would cost. No machine would be able to do it, it would have to be manual.. then you would end up with variations where the wrong 12 faces were painted. ugh... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deeghter
rare
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 2553
Location: Lost
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deputyfife
common
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:01 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| cliffwiggs wrote: | | Die(ter) wrote: | | using different ink colors on the certain 12 faces??? |
I don't even want to know how much that would cost. No machine would be able to do it, it would have to be manual.. then you would end up with variations where the wrong 12 faces were painted. ugh... |
Well, there has to be a machine that does it. It probably isn't used in dice production, though. (Just look at a typical action figure. The face usually has at least 2 different paint colors, painted by machine.)
Of course, that doesn't address the astronomical cost. But if enough of us were willing to pay a premium for a two-ink-colored die (dice), it could be feasible.
This was something I was thinking about recently, though. How does the painting of the dice work? Is it just sprayed on the whole face, and wiped off by some mechanism, so that only the paint that got into the icon crevices stays? Or is the painter controlled by a computer program, so that it paints the exact icon shapes, etc.? That seems impossible to me, because you would either need workers making sure that dice are not only positioned with the correct face up, but oriented in the proper direction. Or some kind of super-genius would have had to figure out exactly how the dice will fall out of the mold every time, and run on a conveyer belt, etc., to be in the right spot to get the correct paint spray on the correct face in the correct direction, without any variability in machine performance or manufacturing defects..... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:08 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
Actually, none of us know for sure. But I think your first thought is very likely. This is judging by the number of dice I've seen that seem like the excess paint was not wiped off very well.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deeghter
rare
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 2553
Location: Lost
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:19 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| chuckpint wrote: | | Actually, none of us know for sure. But I think your first thought is very likely. This is judging by the number of dice I've seen that seem like the excess paint was not wiped off very well. |
Right! I have a few dice with remains of the ink on the faces looking kinda smeared over the face!
_________________
Mr. Green Fan Club President
Forum Games Record: W 5 / L 10
www.dragondicer.com
SFR's German electro-punk-bluegrass artist Deeghter @@ My S&JW Memorial Space! Tanx, Steve! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deputyfife
common
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:03 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| chuckpint wrote: | | Actually, none of us know for sure. But I think your first thought is very likely. This is judging by the number of dice I've seen that seem like the excess paint was not wiped off very well. |
I figured it would also explain why the odd eye/line/dot doesn't have any paint sometimes (especially on cavalry.) If paint is literally being splashed on to the dice, like the icing is glazed on the donuts at Crispy Creme (mmmmm....), then sometimes an air bubble, etc., would result in no actual paint penetration into the crevices/images, so no paint there after being wiped off.
I would be fascinated to see the process sometime, but unfortunately documentary channels just don't see the potential. It's always "The making of the Titanic" or "Sink the Bismarck" or "Polar Bears in Alaska."
I am surprised that no one from SFR has ever been able to finagle a "business trip" out of visiting an Asian country and touring the factory that makes Dragon Dice. (Imagine if they gave out free samples....) Much better than going to the Hershey factory. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deeghter
rare
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 2553
Location: Lost
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:07 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| deputyfife wrote: |
Right! And if I was SFR I would just travel there to look if the company which will get my order can meet my imagination of production quality! |
To pick this up again:
I didn't mean to visit in order to maybe change the manufacturer but to discuss options to further save money and to get an idea of how the dice are produced! This might lead to a very different view regarding planned decisions in the future!!! If you know perfectly well HOW the dice are produced and what the molds look like (and how they work) then you might be able to find better or cheaper solutions to problems you're breaking your heads about without knowing!
_________________
Mr. Green Fan Club President
Forum Games Record: W 5 / L 10
www.dragondicer.com
SFR's German electro-punk-bluegrass artist Deeghter @@ My S&JW Memorial Space! Tanx, Steve!
Last edited by Deeghter on Wed May 18, 2005 4:24 pm GMT; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deputyfife
common
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:26 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| Die(ter) wrote: |
Right! And if I was SFR I would just travel there to look if the company which will get my order can meet my imagination of production quality! |
I was sort of wondering on that, too. Chuck, considering that everyone at SFR is a little hazy on some details of production, don't you wonder if SFR is contracting with a good, reliable manufacturer? I know part of this may be the extreme secrecy within which Chinese companies practice in particular (if it is a Chinese manufacturer), but I would think they would at least have a couple brochures, maybe a video, some snapshots of the production facilities and stages of production, etc., available to prospective customers.
Here's why I'm wondering. Did TSR basically hand over their manufacturing contacts, etc., to WOTC, who in turn handed that over to SFR when SFR purchased DD? If so, maybe it would be in order to shop around competitive bids by other factories/companies who could produce Dragon Dice? I'm sure there is a growing new company in Indonesia or South Korea or Singapore, etc., that might significantly beat the price SFR is paying now.
After all, when 10 years ago mass-producing painted miniatures would have been an impossibility. But now there are at least 4 active product lines from various companies...and the molding requirements there are much tougher. They even have those hand-painted, as I understand it. So the number of companies that can produce DD is probably much larger today than it has been in the past.
I'm asking as a customer; and as a potential investor, if that is a possiblity in the future. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:41 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
Change manufacturers? No way. Why? Simple. There are thousands of $$$ tied up in mold costs. When we brought Dragon Dice from Hasbro, we also got the rights to use those molds. I'm not going to tell how much the molds for Treefolk cost, but it was a good percentage of the cost of the Treefolk. Anytime I want to go to Hong Kong, the rep from NJ is willing to take me on a tour of the plant. But that's the problem. If I want to tour the plant, not only is there the cost of me getting over there, but SFR also has to pay for the cost of flying the rep over there. Add in food, hotels, etc. and you'll see why no one from SFR has seen the plant or the molds. Judging by what little we have in memos, etc, from TSR, and talking to Lester Smith a time or two, I'm not even sure anyone from TSR made the trip. One thing I do know, is that the dice for Dragon Dice are made in a compression mold. Very few molders use that technology. I haven't tried to find out if anyone else could even do it, but I do have in the archives a quote from another dice manufacturer that was twice as much as the one that TSR actually used. I think that Will checked with them again before Treefolk were made, and also found out that they cost quite a bit more.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
Chief Wheedler
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 10794
Location: Cumming, GA - USA
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:41 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
I know before Treefolk, there was talk of someone going over there, but I think that was just a personal pipe dream of Will's before he added up the costs. (How does 'Pipe Dream' translate Dieter? Do you have a slang/idiom dictionary or something)
I'm pretty sure the dice are painted after they are tumbled (or the smeared paint would wear off) which means there's no telling which face is up when they are painted. 
Cliff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deputyfife
common
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:31 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| chuckpint wrote: | | Change manufacturers? No way. Why? Simple. There are thousands of $$$ tied up in mold costs. When we brought Dragon Dice™ from Hasbro, we also got the rights to use those molds. One thing I do know, is that the dice for Dragon Dice™ are made in a compression mold. Very few molders use that technology. I haven't tried to find out if anyone else could even do it, but I do have in the archives a quote from another dice manufacturer that was twice as much as the one that TSR actually used. I think that Will checked with them again before Treefolk™ were made, and also found out that they cost quite a bit more. |
So the manufacturers technically own the molds, but SFR has the rights to use those molds? That is really different from a lot of other industries. I'm taking what you said to mean that if you changed manufacturers, you couldn't take the molds with you or have them sent to a new factory.
That explains why you wouldn't want to change for any of the existing dice. I completely agree, unless SFR ever does new molds for the existing races.
However, I'm still of the opinion, with how much manufacturing has been shifted to China, Singapore, Indonesia, and India, that there are probably companies that *could* make dice, but never have. A percentage of those, I'm sure, would be capable of compression-molding them. And some of those companies might be able to make dice for much cheaper. I'm not saying they necessarily could, just wondering. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deeghter
rare
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 2553
Location: Lost
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 4:12 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| deputyfife wrote: |
However, I'm still of the opinion, with how much manufacturing has been shifted to China, Singapore, Indonesia, and India, that there are probably companies that *could* make dice, but never have. A percentage of those, I'm sure, would be capable of compression-molding them. And some of those companies might be able to make dice for much cheaper. I'm not saying they necessarily could, just wondering. |
Well, considering the costs of new molds, it would only be efficient to change manufacturers when creating a new race or new promo dice! Why not take a cheaper one if new molds have to be made anyway? (depends on the contracts made in former days!)
But as far as the older races are concerned, new molds would be just like throwing money out of the window! Since SFR is presently based upon just ONE game, the money invested into new molds would be just gone and couldn't be recovered by selling enough dice (presently)! And since the achieved product quality is absolutely satisfying there's actually no need to invest that much money without getting it back!
(If SFR would produce the actual Star Trek dice, then I would make a concern like that priority No. ONE! The quality of those just sucks! I bet THEY loose customers every f....g day!)
_________________
Mr. Green Fan Club President
Forum Games Record: W 5 / L 10
www.dragondicer.com
SFR's German electro-punk-bluegrass artist Deeghter @@ My S&JW Memorial Space! Tanx, Steve! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deeghter
rare
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 2553
Location: Lost
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 4:19 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| cliffwiggs wrote: | .....(How does 'Pipe Dream' translate Dieter? Do you have a slang/idiom dictionary or something)....
Cliff |
No, I don't have that! All I have is Mr. Big "L" (Langenscheidt's English/German and German/English dictionary) but I hardly use it.
I understand "pipe dream" but I'm still thinking of an equivalent term in German !? This one's REALLY difficult!
I'd say it's: "The wish is father of the thought". (Again translated literally)
or maybe you could just name it "daydream" (even though this doesn't really represent it!)
_________________
Mr. Green Fan Club President
Forum Games Record: W 5 / L 10
www.dragondicer.com
SFR's German electro-punk-bluegrass artist Deeghter @@ My S&JW Memorial Space! Tanx, Steve! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deeghter
rare
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 2553
Location: Lost
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Autpost
common
Stockholder
Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 471
Location: Vienna
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 5:28 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
I just want to toss in an address I've visited some weeks ago:
http://q-workshop.com/main.php?lang=DE&sell_type=DETAL
They sell monoinked dice for 3.50€ and multiinked dice for 9€. (Click on "Wald Würfel" on the bottom of the page. This die has more than one ink.) That shows the price difference between an one ink product and multiink.
As far as I have recognized those dice are handmade. So if some of us want to have a specific (and inofficial) die (like a 24sided dragon) maybe we can talk to a company like this and order say 100 elder dragons. (Just similar to Cafe Press). And if my dragon is multiinked I would pay 9€ although he is not official! They already have 6-sided dragon-dice (Click on "W6 Drache" on the right side).
btw: pipe dream = cream cake (?) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
|
| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 7:58 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| deputyfife wrote: | | So the manufacturers technically own the molds, but SFR has the rights to use those molds? That is really different from a lot of other industries. I'm taking what you said to mean that if you changed manufacturers, you couldn't take the molds with you or have them sent to a new factory. That explains why you wouldn't want to change for any of the existing dice. I completely agree, unless SFR ever does new molds for the existing races. |
My work experience has always been that the tooling (in this case molds) can't be simply picked up from one company and moved to another one. The machines are not that standard, so the molds only really work on the machines for the company that made the mold. This is true no matter what kind of mold it is. SFR as far as I know owns the molds, but the chances of another company being able to use those molds is about zip.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Watched Topics
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
