 |
SFR, Inc.
Forums that relate to SFR products
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ddicerc
rare
Public Relations Director
Esteemed Author
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 3238
Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
|
 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:59 pm GMT Post subject: |
 |
|
Actually, according to the rules the owning player always rolls the dragon. (Part of the fun of summoning your opponent's dragons is watching them roll their own destruction.) So having the rolling player choose between the two breaths wouldn't work.
I have no problems with the hybrids as is. I generally play either melee or missile heavy armies, and use elementals all the time since I don't make dragons a major part of my game plan. Defensive dragon selection is also a part of the game.
Here's another thought-instead of raising the casting cost for hybrids, how about lowering the casting cost for elementals? If the elementals cost 6, for instance, that could make them more attractive, especially to small and low-magic armies. Lower cost might also mean you see more dragons in the game. I don't actually want to see this happen, but just throw it out as another idea.
_________________
Steve "DDice" Braun
The Diceman's Gaming Pages: http://ddicerc.weebly.com
2014-2015 U.S. National Champion
(Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
eggsaladsandwich
uncommon
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 519
Location: West Linn, OR.
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:10 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| ddicerc wrote: | | Actually, according to the rules the owning player always rolls the dragon. (Part of the fun of summoning your opponent's dragons is watching them roll their own destruction.) So having the rolling player choose between the two breaths wouldn't work. |
now youre just being overly technical. You know what I meant. The player whose not being attacked by the dragons chooses the breath. In the case of a multiplayer game , flip a coin or roll the big green honkin die to decide which of the players (who are not being attacked) get to choose...logic... 
_________________
"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eggsaladsandwich
uncommon
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 519
Location: West Linn, OR.
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:19 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| ddicerc wrote: |
I have no problems with the hybrids as is. I generally play either melee or missile heavy armies, and use elementals all the time since I don't make dragons a major part of my game plan. Defensive dragon selection is also a part of the game. |
This is a good point.However I believe players who chose dragons hoping that they wont be cast are an extreme minority. Even if you choose dragons to throw against other dragons as a defense, its still better to choose a hybrid as the chances of your opponents dragons matching yours is less. 
_________________
"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DEEPBLUEB2
monster
Stockholder
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 7894
Location: Des Plaines, IL
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:25 am GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| pi wrote: | | The best solution is either raise the casting cost or turn hybrids into ten health dragons like the white dragon. |
well again...the bandaid over the scar issue...
the dragonlair and dragonstaff can summon hybrids...
so the casting cost is not what people have deemed as an issue.
| Skawilly wrote: | | Still so evasive to the issue Mr. Rayborn. The breath is broken. |
Well I do have some more evasive alternate concepts yet....
let's look at the white dragon...
theoretically,
it's prismatic,
all colors....
this SAI have been declared an entity.
By theory, or game mechanics,
the white dragon should have all 5 breaths,
but the white breath is classified as terrain empathy.
So in essence,
the game mechanics step aside and a newly formed breath..terrain empathy replaces the prismatic breath.
This is all fine since it's carved in stone.
Now the treasure,
I'm guessing it's health based,
so that's where it gets its double promote,
again,
declared and carved in stone.
So a hybrid breath could be declared "hybrid empathy...or perhaps racial breath"
by doing this,
it removes the game mechanics and allows a new declaration to what this entails,
rather than allow the game mechanics to dictate the power.
This is the actual issue.
=======================
If going with the 8 point concept...
again,
game mechanics are broken...
1. Hybrids cost 8: 4 of each color
there is no multi colored spell in dragondice.
2. restrict hybrids to 1
and allow elemental dragons to merge with hybrids instead of fighting.
Again breaking the game mechanics...
but let's look at this for a second...
SFR has made it clear that they don't want a new product to make an existing product obsolete.
So if elemental dragons are becoming nothing more than starter box dragons,
that's a problem...
at least that's my thinking here,
as I am not a rep.
So if you restrict a hybrid to one per summoning pool,
and allow hybrids to merge with elemental dragons,
then their breath is not such an issue.
So it's really not that the hybrid breath is the problem,
rather it's multiple hybrid breaths.
3. Make the hybrid 14 points.
After thinking about it...
it might not be so bad...
as you still could only bring 1 hybrid in a battlefest.
Now the specialness of a white dragon would be in dragonkin,
although an ivory hybrid disallows dragonkin from being rolled as well.
The white dragon also has the ability to pump up its breath.
So for the most part...
hybrids also have two colors of dragonkin that can't roll...
minus resist fear...
==============
Breath Tax:
this seems to be the common quick fix,
but again,
I feel that since dragon staff and dragon lair can access hybrids,
it's just a political way to slow down the summoning.
I honestly don't feel this approach is the best way to address the breath over powered issue.
IF you pump up the hybrid to a double dragon strength...14
then that's a better fix...if a fix is deemed necessary.
================
Racial Summoning:
here...
keep the hybrids the same...
but only racial magic can summon the matching hybrid.
So Coral Elf magic can only summon the blue/green hybrid.
In the case of the ivory/hybrids....
amazons and eldarim magic.
Now this makes it simple for the player who brings the hybrid...
although this will tend to make armies more racial oriented,
so that may be a strength or a weakness...
======================
So I have to go back the elemental dragons...
they can't become extinct!!
perhaps in the presence of a hybrid...
all colors merge.
So if you limit 1 hybrid per summoning pool...
and allow matching dragons to merge this is what you get....
battlefest scenario:
Red/Green Hybrid
Red Dragon
Green Dragon
Here the dragons don't fight...
instead they merge....
so you still get the possibility of 2 red breaths and 2 green breaths.
=================
And finally....
my concerns are for:
all players and non players,
the SFR staff, (their patience as well)
my personal views,
the existing rules, (game mechanics)
the actual game of dragon dice.
So please use anything you see posted as reference rather than anything else. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skawilly
rare
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 1322
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:13 am GMT Post subject: |
|
|
"So it's really not that the hybrid breath is the problem,
rather it's multiple hybrid breaths." - JimRayborn
This one point I have to disagree with.
I definitely agree very much so in changing the cost of these dragons is not the answer either. I surely recognize they are on a 14 pt. system. Please dont push them to white dragon status either, though that is just a personal standing.
I am going to say this on your point of dragon breath costing 7, if you raise them to 8 it would make their breath 4 pts. per. That makes sense, but then again at the moment elemental breath is worth half of that, in essence. So I think based on this, the moment hybrids were created the game mechanics broke.
Racial casting is interesting and never occurred to me. Also it was stated early that dragons are not any ones to own thus the breath cannot be chosen and I concur, though the second point of crying foul is FAR better than getting hit with both of them anyway.
I just do not see any other way of fixing hybrids other than bringing their breath down to the actual 7 pt. cost of elemental breath. Maybe the color that summoned them is the breath chosen? I just dont have that answer but keeping them at full strength dual breath is bad news. EDIT: Maybe the person who summoned them chooses the breath color, until re-summoned, still I dunno.
Your dead on though in a lot and I think everyone should take heed on what your saying, that when changing ANYTHING in the game a lot gets effected and might go w/o notice until its too late. Example you brought up here was the Staff and Lair, very good points. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dburkley
rare
Director
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1200
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:25 pm GMT Post subject: Hybrid Dragons |
|
|
| Jim Rayborn wrote: |
Racial Summoning:
Keep the hybrids the same, but only racial magic can summon the matching hybrid - so Coral Elf magic can only summon the blue/green hybrid.
In the case of the ivory/hybrids....
amazons and eldarim magic.
Now this makes it simple for the player who brings the hybrid...
although this will tend to make armies more racial oriented,
so that may be a strength or a weakness...
|
That's an interesting and thoughtful idea, Jim.
I had a somewhat similar thought of making the hybrid cost 8, but it had to be four from each color (with any color for the ivory component) - so in the blue/green hybrid example, it would have to be 4 blue and 4 green (which the Coral Elves could easily cast). Creating a "Summon Hybrid Dragon" spell as a racial spell is an interesting option I could buy into.
Along the "racial" thought process, I have been toying with a "scenario" rule where the hybrid dragon is a 5-health unit of the race it shares its color combination with (both for the boardgame playtesting and in the standard game). It cannot be summoned by SAIs or spells, however (although the elemental dragons would still use all the current rules associated with dragons). It would not have any "automatic saves", and its icons would be re-defined as "Dragon SAIs":
Jaws = 5-health ID icon
Claws = melee icon, generating 5 damage in a melee action
Tail = Tail SAI (in a melee, Tail would do 2 damage and roll this die again)
Belly = save icon, generating 5 saves
Wing = Fly SAI (during any roll, counts as 5 maneuvers or 5 saves)
Breath = During a melee action, acts as a 5 point Dragonkin Champion Breath SAI. During a missile action, acts as a 5 point Rare Dragonkin Breath SAI.
But even this toned-down re-definition is still deadly. In the boardgame playtest sessions using the advanced rules, they make things "exciting", but can still be taken down. As a "scenario rule", it makes for an interesting variant, but I don't think it belongs in the standard rules.
_________________
Daniel Burkley
US National Champion (DEXCON 2007, 2009, 2010)
World Champion (GENCON 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2014)
Battlefest Champion: DEXCON 2008, 2011, GENCON 2009, 2010 (co-champion), 2011, 2017)
"No Magicians": GENCON 2008
"Single Race": DEXCON 2008, GENCON 2010, 2011, 2014 (co-champion), 2017 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skawilly
rare
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 1322
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:26 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| Well I mean, the racial summon is interesting definitely. But it still does not cure the issue w/the breath and also it would further give "control; ownership" to the dragons in a sense. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DialFforFunky
rare
Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 1992
Location: Groningen
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:44 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| Skawilly wrote: | | Well I mean, the racial summon is interesting definitely. But it still does not cure the issue w/the breath and also it would further give "control; ownership" to the dragons in a sense. |
true and not true.
not true: 10 breath is now restricted to races only, which is quite a big restriction
true: any race has a hybrid available that no one else can summon, so there is even more reason to take hybrids. Quite the opposite of what we want.
F |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eggsaladsandwich
uncommon
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 519
Location: West Linn, OR.
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:22 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| DialFforFunky wrote: | | Skawilly wrote: | | Well I mean, the racial summon is interesting definitely. But it still does not cure the issue w/the breath and also it would further give "control; ownership" to the dragons in a sense. |
true and not true.
not true: 10 breath is now restricted to races only, which is quite a big restriction
true: any race has a hybrid available that no one else can summon, so there is even more reason to take hybrids. Quite the opposite of what we want.
F |
Two bronze medallions rolling cantrips would allow you to cast any hybrid, reguardless of what race your playing.
_________________
"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dburkley
rare
Director
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1200
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:57 pm GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| DialFforFunky wrote: | | Skawilly wrote: | | Well I mean, the racial summon is interesting definitely. But it still does not cure the issue w/the breath and also it would further give "control; ownership" to the dragons in a sense. |
true and not true.
not true: 10 breath is now restricted to races only, which is quite a big restriction
true: any race has a hybrid available that no one else can summon, so there is even more reason to take hybrids. Quite the opposite of what we want.
F |
What do "we" want, exactly?
I suspect that question will generate quite a few different answers, so perhaps it might be a good idea to define what players' expectations are.
My reasons for liking the idea of a "Summon Hybrid Dragon" as a racial spell, include:
1) Makes the hybrid more difficult to summon than the elemental in any format, except "Single Race", which tends to force the player that wants to use them to build the army around a core of one race. A "Single Race" army can be successful in other tournament formats, and this might promote the use of such armies, but outside of "Single Race", I think a more diversified army is the better overall army, but now the hybrid is not as easy an option for such an army.
2) Armies constructed with more "diversity" will tend to avoid using the hybrid (unless they employ medallions or magicians of one particular race). The balancing act would not be the spell casting cost, but how each type of dragon can be effectively employed by the player (and the opponents), given the different restrictions.
Now that does go against the argument (or belief) that one of the aspects of the current hybrid rules is that they would be easier to summon by an opponent (and therefore, easier to use against their owner). That potential disadvantage helps justify the equivalent cost to summon the hybrid vs an elemental.
_________________
Daniel Burkley
US National Champion (DEXCON 2007, 2009, 2010)
World Champion (GENCON 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2014)
Battlefest Champion: DEXCON 2008, 2011, GENCON 2009, 2010 (co-champion), 2011, 2017)
"No Magicians": GENCON 2008
"Single Race": DEXCON 2008, GENCON 2010, 2011, 2014 (co-champion), 2017 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skawilly
rare
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 1322
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:05 am GMT Post subject: |
|
|
I am sorry, but who cares honestly who can summon the beasts? If/when the breath strikes its game over. So now the beasties are not summonable by any one other than the acting player. Nothing is solved, just rules are changed, for no reason, seeing as every race would have access to their own.
Nerf the breath,
Will |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DialFforFunky
rare
Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 1992
Location: Groningen
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:39 am GMT Post subject: |
|
|
| dburkley wrote: | | DialFforFunky wrote: | | more text |
What do "we" want, exactly?
I suspect that question will generate quite a few different answers, so perhaps it might be a good idea to define what players' expectations are.
|
You've pointed out a very reasonable point for criticism. It isn't reasonable to assume everyone has the same intentions, and we would be wise to get some clarity on them.
As for me, I'd like the hybrids to provide us with a tactical choice that has actual pro's and con's that significantly weight up to each other. I don't care too much for making them restricted as an end in itself, but rather as a means for tactical choices.
For example, I do not think we've gotten that much further if it's pretty hard to make an army that can use a hybrid, but when the army does allow it, the hybrid becomes an auto-include. This is a grey area though, as it can be claimed that creating this special army is a tactical choice as well. But this is not the tactical choice I'm looking for, as I think it has the means and ends the wrong way around (tactics for hybrid rather than hybrids for a tactic).
This is why I liked the 8-cost hybrid so much. As the point cost is more balanced to the hybrids power-level, it makes you wonder whether the 1-point increase is worth it. Do you want black/blue breaths to capture an 8th face? Green/yellow to stop those pesky amazons? Then take a hybrid. Just want a heavy puncher or something that's easy to summon amongst your other spells? Then take the elemental. Going for 8th-faces or staffs? Hybrids, most likely, though this is not that bad as it still requires a good bit of commitment, and the difference between the dragons is still not that huge.
While writing this, I realized I'd also like the elemental dragon to be slightly more common than the hybrid. But this is based upon nothing other than gut feeling.
F |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
digitalsith
common
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Posts: 183
Location: Tampa-ish Florida
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:36 am GMT Post subject: |
|
|
I don’t think its fair that hybrids do more damage than elementals for the same price. I don’t think you need to change anything other than the hybrids casting cost. Like 8-10, to make up for the fact that there is a 1 in 12 chance of rolling breath for 10.
Alternatively you could say the dragons are capable of both breaths and the active player can choose which, instead of doing both. I seriously think all you need to do is put the price of hybrids somewhere in between elementals and whites and this issue is solved.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Watched Topics
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
