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UltimaGabe · Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:23 pm GMT Post subject: How to prevent turtling?

So, I was teaching a friend to play the game today, and after a couple low-health games, we played a 36-health game with him playing undead and me playing goblins. Long-story-short, after a few turns, the game hit a stalemate- one terrain was covered with two ivory dragons (that I summoned to try and keep him from using it), and both of us had grouped all of our units into a giant army each at a different terrain. We were both very magic-heavy, so every round he'd roll some magic and summon some dragons on me, which I'd fight off (sometimes losing a couple units in the process)- and then I'd either bring back my dead units or (if possible) sic some dragons on him, and then he'd do the same. After a little while we realized that to change things up would mean giving up the terrains we'd taken (and allowing the other person the advantage, if not outright getting ourselves killed). In the end, I made a dumb move (mainly with the intention of just trying to change things up since I didn't want the game to last forever), and I got murdered for it. Even if I hadn't done that, though, I'm pretty sure I'd have lost anyway, since every time I lost units, he'd cause me to bury them (something which I wasn't able to do as easily to him).

TL;DR version: Both of us had a very effective defensive strategy, and thus the game lasted a long time. How do I prevent this/counter this?

eggsaladsandwich · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:21 am GMT Post subject:

Short answer, be more aggressive before the two standoff terrains get to the 8th and don't summon ivorys to the third unless you have gold magic (to "Path" your way under them and advance that terrain).
Long answer, Given the circumstances, there is no easy way to break the standoff once it happens. Turtleing is the easiest strat to play, thats why its common to see it. Take the road less traveled and if you see you opponent starting to turtle..get all your units at his terrain asap and go toe to toe...the game will definitely not drag on too long. Its been my experience that most games boil down to one of 3 types...1) uber aggressive mass army on mass army at same terrain dicefests, 2) ESFAR standoffs like the one you describe (I call it "magic turtle" or "turtle missile") or 3) players actually think and try to out maneuver each other by using their units strengths and capitolizing on thier opponents weaknesses (the harder, higher and most fun route).
My 4.5 cents given. Cool

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cliffwiggs · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:42 am GMT Post subject:

correct, you can't prevent someone from trying to turtle.

however, as the goblins you had access to path, so you should've kept a single common at the terrain with the ivories and just turned it up. even if they killed the common each turn you just path a new one over.

however likewise the undead can just fade a unit and turn the terrain up.

either way, that game shouldn't've lasted more than 8 turns after you both turtled. don't ignore that 3rd terrain or the power of a single common.
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DEEPBLUEB2 · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:29 am GMT Post subject:

Anti Turtle breaker:

Skawilly · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:14 am GMT Post subject:

This reminds me of my thread 3 months ago.
I am on board fully with Webmaster Wiggs. I learned, after many hours of playing and complaining on these here forums, to just simply ignore the mob. You can literally just get 2 8th faces while they try and try at you. Most races should have a way to manipulate terrain.

As far as Webmaster Rayborns approach, ball bustin is a sweet attempt and I am far more experienced with undead than goblins but if he had split his melee from his mages and then engaged with melee on you while w/his mages pounded you with evil eyes that woulda made a hole.

Experience sincerely does make this stop, only time can cure this problem. At least that was the answer for me.

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

Help! My girlfriend keeps turtling me with her Amazons!

The problem is that she immediately moves her entire army to her home, using her cavalry to outmaneuver me and shoot me down, then locks her Tower up and slaughters me.

If I stay at her home, my SS lose a lot of saves and I can't win. If I retreat to my home, she just picks me off from her tower!

The only chance I have is to move to her home while it's in Melee and try to strike, but by then she's got her whole army. Plus she can always retreat to her Reserve to shoot me off her home.

cliffwiggs · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:05 pm GMT Post subject:

that is a very common army and you have a very common problem.

the best way to prevent that army is to keep her off the 8th face. so yes, you have to maneuver or melee her.

If you had access to gold or red you could reduce her maneuvers and missile via spells and just ignore her.

If you want to play pure swamp stalkers, then I recommend putting magicians in reserves and using open grave every turn. unless she gets an SAI you can just ignore the damage each turn as the open grave will suck it up.

Mire will help keep her off the 8th face as well.

Rock-paper-scissors, if her army beats yours, then change your army.
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stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

Yeah I suppose you're right. I am hoping to trade for some better Feral guys so hopefully I can crush her in melee with them.

Once she gets that eighth face, her Cavalry turn into Missile-pumping death machines. It's plain ludicrous watching her double maneuvers turn into missles. How can one Amazon carry so many javelins?

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:23 pm GMT Post subject:

Ok my thoughts are that as a swamp stalker player use open grave against that attrition. Nothing you can do about sai's in any scenario. Grab a swamp land standing stones for path and slow move the center up. She can do the same on a flatland but as a horde she can't shoot. Also' abuse wall of fog.

Another strat for you is you can finger of death her and bury her the next turn unless she is casting to res and then her horde won't be shooting
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DialFforFunky · rare Joined: 11 May 2010 Posts: 1992 Location: Groningen

Wall of fog or dancing lights with some additional negative modifiers could help out a lot. Scalder magic could help out and provides intangibility at the same time. Treefolk would also give those amazons a hard time, as they have double counter-maneuvers, wall of thorns, flash flood, wall of fog and TRtM.
Perhaps an odd third option could be Firewalkers. Firewalkers love blue terrains for ther terrain flight, so you can gang up on her armies before she gang up on yours. Add some cantrip-producing units that could provide dust devil. The only problem would be missile fire from the reserves, but before she gets to do so, you could just hop back to your home. Oh, and they do pretty well in melee (especially some of the monsters).

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evylution · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:21 pm GMT Post subject:

in that amazon scenario make her come out for the win. you can path a unit on your turn to the other unoccupied terrain and dial up and retreat. leave everyone at your 8th face and have her try to arrow you there. if you cantrip and do not need saves you can use spells to bomb some of her smaller guys and roll for magic on your next turn and bury them. if you are playing goblins they work really well against this sort of digging in with amazons. also transmute rock to mud on her maneuvers. there are lots of other things to do with other armies as well. scalders with dancing lights and their inherent missile save racial. you can even abandon your own eight face and just send out two commons each turn to the unoccupied terrains as long as she does not have access to gold magic via her home terrain or a bronze medallion. just some thoughts for you.

cliffwiggs · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:26 pm GMT Post subject:

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:28 pm GMT Post subject:

She has access to gold however.
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"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

cliffwiggs · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:29 pm GMT Post subject:

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:31 pm GMT Post subject:

Amazon on flatland equals gold and blue magic
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Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

cliffwiggs · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:53 pm GMT Post subject:

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:04 pm GMT Post subject:

Well right the biggest problem with turtling is that you only get one march do what you can to exploit that.
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Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

DialFforFunky · rare Joined: 11 May 2010 Posts: 1992 Location: Groningen

Hide/fade/camouflage + wind walk/water walking/restless dead? Still seems kind of iffy though. Night moves is another option.

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