SFR, Inc.

[chuckpint]

The following is a proposed change to the rules for hybrid dragons (including ivory hybrids). If no serious problems are found, these will go into version 2.6 of the rules. Version 2.6 will be the rules used at GenCon:

Dragon attack rules:
Move "Dragon vs Dragon" to a new step between the current step 4 (Resolve Treasure) and step 5 (Army's response to the dragon). Then if a dragon kills another dragon (see new ivory hybrid rules) the dragon is gone before the army can kill it, but the damage is still there to affect the army.

Hybrid Dragons:
These dragons are hybrids of the elemental dragons. Composed of two elemental colors, they have both colors in their very makeup. They generate one color of breath against 5 health of the defending army (dragon's owner picks which breath), and both colors of army breath effects against the army. However, the dragons are affected by both colors as well. A Dragon Summoning spell of either color will summon them to a terrain. Eldarim Champions that match either color can affect them normally. Dragonhunters matching one color of breath block that breath, but not the other. Dragon Staffs and Dragonkin Champions of either color also affect them normally. Dragonkin of either matching color cannot be rolled when attacked by an Hybrid dragon. Hybrid Dragons fight all dragons (except pure ivory dragons and ivory hybrids with a matching elemental color) that do not match their colors exactly. Elemental and White dragons fight all Hybrid Dragons.

Ivory Hybrid Dragons
These dragons are hybrids of the elemental dragons and an ivory dragon. Composed of one elemental color and ivory, they have that elemental color in their very makeup, plus all the attributes of the ivory dragons. They generate either an ivory breath or their elemental breath against 5 health of the defending army (dragon's owner picks which breath), and the elemental army breath effect (if any) against the army. A Dragon Summoning spell of any color (reflecting their ivory nature) will summon them to a terrain. Eldarim Champions of a single elemental color that match the dragon’s elemental color can affect them normally. White Eldarim Champions affect them normally. Dragon Staffs and Dragonkin Champions of the same elemental color as the dragon also affect them normally. Just like pure ivory dragons, dragonkin cannot be rolled when attacked by an Ivory Hybrid dragon. Like the pure ivory dragons, once summoned to a terrain, no ivory Dragon Summoning spell can move them. However, a Dragon Summoning spell of their elemental color can move them. Ivory Hybrid Dragons, like pure ivory dragons, always attack the army at the terrain. However, they are attacked by all Hybrid dragons that do not have a matching elemental color. Elemental dragons not matching the Ivory Hybrid dragon’s elemental color and White dragons attack all Ivory Hybrid Dragons.

Notes:
So for both Hybrid Dragons and Ivory Hybrid Dragons, only 5 health of units (maximum) will be effected by breath. I decided that having the dragon owner choose was the best way to pick a breath effect. That gives people the incentive to summon their own dragons instead of someone else's dragons. Since ivory has no real lasting effect, I decided to change it so Ivory Hybrids always attack the army. However, they have the drawback of being attacked (with no counter-attack) against most other dragons. The point of all this is to make the changes be consistent without radically changing how dragons work. And to also keep it fairly simple. I'm sure that some of the above can be worded a bit better, please feel free to make some suggestions.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[Skawilly]

SICK!!!

But just so I am super clear, even though 5 damage max are taken. Is both the breaths' effects done? i.e. black/blue attacks and breaths. I lose 5 w/no save from black and now my face id's towards army rolls are ignored. Does this also mean the army is paralyzed?

This is really good news. I know having a player choose was not optimal as dragons are not owned. But its just the only way. I also like how you prevented Ivory Hybrids from getting nerfed in this fashion. That was great.

Also, having the owning player choose can be called as foul play. But I still think its better than being hit with both. And such it is.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

[chuckpint]

To your example: Black/Blue rolls breath. Two possible outcomes: The dragon owner picks Blue to affect the 5-health of units, or Black to affect the units. In the first case, the army owner picks 5 health, rolls to see if any save, puts any that do not into the DUA. In the second case, the army owner picks 5 health to die. After that, the army is affected by both Black and Blue breath effects until the beginning of their next turn. So the army only rolls for saves, and IDs do not count.

Does that clear it up?
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[Skawilly]

yes thnx. Good stuff here.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

[Dolus]

I think I like this change. I'm inexperienced, so the changes are all speculation for me, but 1 dragon having 2 breaths sounds really powerful. Bringing it down to 1 damage worth of breath, and then the lasting effects of both breaths sounds much more balanced and fair, while maintaining the hybrid aspect of the dragon.

I also like that the dragon's owner chooses which breath is used. Like you said, it encourages players to summon their own dragons, not their opponent's. Seems only fair that you should benefit from having brought the dragon in the first place.

[SpazzyP]

Sweet! I like it much better this way!

[DialFforFunky]

Overall, I kind of like it. I'm just not entirely sure I like the 'owner chooses breath' part, as I think it implicates that 'x + green' hybrids will becom popular because of the relatively low impact of green breath on most armies. It creates a bit of a 'bad for you, not that bad for me'-style breath. On the other hand, this would create an incentive for people to use more green magic. There are probably more factors that are affected, so it is a bit hard to give a final verdict just yet. Still, the reduction to 5 damage is excellent!


F
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717

[cliffwiggs]

Make it so.

the only awkward part is this:"They generate one color of breath against 5 health of the defending army (dragon's owner picks which breath), and both colors of army breath effects against the army."

We are splitting the breath into two pieces w/o having ever defined that breaths have both a damage and effect piece. After looking over the breath wordings. I think it would be better to make this distinction by individual/army targeting. So reword this section to use those terms and (maybe)add something to the dragon section that clarifies this:

"Every Dragon Breath (except ivory and red) contains two distinct effects; an individual targeting effect and an army targeting effect."

That defines the two sections and then Hybrids can reference that definition to say that you choose the Individual Targeting effect from one breath, but are stuck with the army targeting effect from both breaths.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

New breath section:

Every Dragon Breath (except ivory and red) contains two distinct effects; an individual targeting effect (Five health-worth of units....) and an army targeting effect (The target army...).

Black Dragon Breath (Disease): Five health-worth of units in the target army are killed, no saves possible. The target army ignores all its ID results until the beginning of its next turn. Note: The ID results from a unit rolling to avoid an individual-targeting effect are not affected.

Blue Dragon Breath (Lightning): Five health-worth of units in the target army must save individually or be killed. The target army can only make save and save avoidance rolls until the beginning of its next turn. All other rolls are either not allowed, or, if a combination avoidance roll that includes saves, becomes simply and only a save avoidance roll.

Gold Dragon Breath (Turn to Stone): Five health-worth of units in the target army are killed, no saves possible. The target army’s maneuver results are halved until the beginning of its next turn.

Green Dragon Breath (Poisonous Cloud): Five health-worth of units in the target army must save individually or be killed. Those that are killed must save again or be buried. The target army’s missile results are halved until the beginning of its next turn.

Ivory Dragon Breath (Life Drain): Five health-worth of units in the target army are killed, no saves possible.

Red Dragon Breath (Flame): Five health-worth of units in the target army are killed, no saves possible. The units killed must then either save or be buried.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[chuckpint]

Proposed new version 2.6 rules are here.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[evylution]

Ivory hybrid dragons, like pure ivory dragons, always attack the army at the terrain.
However, they are attacked by all hybrid dragons that do not have a matching elemental color...

so which hybrid dragons would not attack a green/ivory hybrid?

a) only other green/ivory hybrid dragons...

or

b) green/red, green/black, green/blue, green/gold because they have a matching color (green)

or

c) both "a" and "b" are correct...

sorry that i am dense, i just do not fully get what that phrasing means by hybrid matching color... does that mean exact matching colors or what?

[chuckpint]

I can change the ending to this (note added sentence in bold): Ivory Hybrid Dragons, like pure ivory dragons, always attack the army at the terrain. However, they are attacked by all Hybrid dragons that do not have a matching elemental color. In other words, the ivory acts as a universal color and matches any color. Elemental dragons not matching the Ivory Hybrid dragon’s elemental color and White dragons attack all Ivory Hybrid Dragons.

How about I add these examples:

Example 1: An Ivory dragon, an ivory/green hybrid dragon, and a red/green hybrid dragon are at a terrain at the start of a player's turn. All will attack the army. The red/green hybrid sees the ivory/green as matching since ivory and red "match".

Example 2: An ivory/green hybrid dragon and a red/blue hybrid dragon are at a terrain at the start of a player's turn. The ivory/green hybrid attacks the player's army, but the red/blue hybrid dragon attacks the ivory/green hybrid since it has no matching elemental color.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[evylution]

example 1 was exactly the clarification i needed.

[chuckpint]

Rules 2.6 updated.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[chuckpint]

Noticed another problem. Text before dragon attack needs to be changed. Proposed changes:

[chuckpint]

If there are no further questions or problems brought up, I'm going to "go to press" with this on Sunday. I do not have the change above in the document. But otherwise, this link is the latest version. Please post any problems, questions, or comments about the dragon rules here.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[DEEPBLUEB2]

[chuckpint]

Rules version 2.6 is now officially posted.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[shoesan]

Love the detail on the Ivory hybrids, but I have a question about the other hybrids. Will a gold dragon attack a gold/green dragon? Would a gold/red dragon attack a gold/green dragon? I cant seem to find where it covers this in the rules. Basically, what I want to know is, do both colors have to match to avoid dragon versus dragon, or just one color match?
_________________
Shoe

[cliffwiggs]

If ivory is not involved, then both have to match exactly to prevent a fight.

so Gold will fight a Green/Gold.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99