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Newbie needs clarifications

 
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DeadSirius
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:23 am GMT    Post subject: Newbie needs clarifications Reply with quote

Sorry, I've never actually played (any L.A. groups looking to beat up on someone?), and there are some points in the basic rules I'm trying to understand:

Home Terrain - Even though I choose my own home terrain, am I still able to capture it as a condition to win the game? In other words, in a 2-player game, where there are 3 terrains in play, do I get to choose any 2 of those 3 to capture?

Reserve Movement - During the Reserve Movement of a single turn, is an individual unit able to move into AND out of the reserve area? Or if a unit enters the reserve area during a turn, must it wait until the Resrve Movement of the next turn before it can move out?

Terrain 8th Face - Another player has captured a terrain where one of my armies is located, and it’s now my turn. If I roll to maneuver and succeed, does it stay on the 8th face and become captured by me, or does it go down to 7, and I can only capture during my next turn?

Thanks for your help.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:20 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Newbie needs clarifications Reply with quote

Well, I'm not a rules lawyer, but I'm up early, the coffee is kicking in, and so I'll try to answer these correctly. Chime in if I'm wrong, gang, but these are pretty easy questions...

DeadSirius wrote:
there are some points in the basic rules I'm trying to understand:


That's what this forum is here for, and welcome to the game! Hope you find a group out there to play with.

Quote:
Home Terrain - Even though I choose my own home terrain, am I still able to capture it as a condition to win the game? In other words, in a 2-player game, where there are 3 terrains in play, do I get to choose any 2 of those 3 to capture?


Yes. Two out of three terrains are required for the win, and it doesn't matter which of the two they are. Most players in my group make an effort to capture their home terrain first, unless an opponent's Home is sitting on a 6 or 7. Among my players, the frontier is usually the least desirable of the terrains to grab at first because it is vulnerable to shots from any Home terrain, but again, if it starts with a high face it could be fought over fiercely right from the start.

Quote:
Reserve Movement - During the Reserve Movement of a single turn, is an individual unit able to move into AND out of the reserve area? Or if a unit enters the reserve area during a turn, must it wait until the Resrve Movement of the next turn before it can move out?


No and Yes. You answered your own question. Units pulled into Reserves at the end of your turn may only move back out during the Reinforcement phase of your next turn, which comes after both marches but before a Reserve action. During Reinforcement movement, you can send units already in the Reserve area to ANY terrain in play. Then you can take another Reserve action and pull other units back into Reserves if you wish to.

Quote:

Terrain 8th Face - Another player has captured a terrain where one of my armies is located, and it's now my turn. If I roll to maneuver and succeed, does it stay on the 8th face and become captured by me, or does it go down to 7, and I can only capture during my next turn?


The terrain would move down to the 7th face, and you would have to counter your opponent's attempt on his turn from maneuvering it back up to the 8th. If you were successful, on your turn you could then attempt to turn the 8th. Considering that if the other guy has captured the 8th face, his maneuvers and saves are doubled, trying to turn it back down can be tricky, but it's not impossible. Read the CWC summary from last night and you'll see an example of this.

Hope this helped you!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:44 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Newbie needs clarifications Reply with quote

Majiken wrote:
Well, I'm not a rules lawyer, but I'm up early, the coffee is kicking in, and so I'll try to answer these correctly. Chime in if I'm wrong, gang, but these are pretty easy questions...


You answered correctly. I will make one additional comment, because I am a rules lawyer and have to tell al the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions.

DeadSirius wrote:
Reserve Movement - During the Reserve Movement of a single turn, is an individual unit able to move into AND out of the reserve area? Or if a unit enters the reserve area during a turn, must it wait until the Resrve Movement of the next turn before it can move out?


another way to consider this. The Reserve phase of the turn is actually made up of two parts: Reinforce and Retreat. You always reinforce first and retreat 2nd. Reinforce means moving from Reserves area to a terrain. Retreat means moving from a terrain to the reserves area.

Thus the turn sequence answers your question. Reinforce first, retreat second.

So a unit COULD move out of reserves and then right back into it. There are a few rare occations this might be helpful (to remove spells on the reserve army), but since you are just learning I won't confuse you by going into a lot of detail on that yet.

A unit can never move move from a terrain - to reserves - and then back out to another terrain on the same turn. (Note that Firewalker special abilities is an exception in that it bypasses the reserve area all together)

I hope I made the situation more clear instead of less.
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DeadSirius
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, yes, it's all clear now. I knew they were easy questions, but not having actually played with anyone, I have only the rules to read, and they're not crystal clear on these points.

(I find it amusing that the rulebook that came with my dice is a small pamphlet, but the official rules are a 27-page document.)

Thanks again.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:59 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeadSirius wrote:

(I find it amusing that the rulebook that came with my dice is a small pamphlet, but the official rules are a 27-page document.)


Laughing I agree. That pamplet was printed many years ago, the game has expanded a lot since then, thus there are more rules to account for all the various possibilities.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't want to start a whole new thread for this, but I've got a few questions. This seemed appropriate, so here's a little ditty for the rules lawyers:

Let's say after rolling saves, my army takes 3 points of damage. The army has only uncommons and rares, including one uncommon dragonkin (who has not rolled a belly, and whose auto saves haven't been counted yet.)
Can the dragonkin's 2 auto saves take off 2 points of damage, preventing any loss of units in this case? When is the proper time to add a dragonkin's auto saves?
What if a rare Dragonkin is targeted by a SAI or spell that does 4 points of damage, but allows an idividual save roll? If the dragonkin fails the save roll, does it still survive due to the 3 autosaves(since 1 point of damage can't kill a dragonkin?)

Let's get a little more specific:
Say a missile attack is rolled, and a bullseye comes up, among some regular missile hits. The bullseye(4 icons) is applied to a rare dragonkin. The dragonkin harmlessly rolls melee results for the save roll. However, the auto saves count for individual and army rolls, so 2 hits are repelled by autosaves. Do the remaining 2 hits apply to the dragonkin for the rest of this missile action(save roll, and applied results?) In other words, does this rare dragonkin now have only one health point left until this action is resolved?
Regardless of the answer to that question, the dragonkin has survived the bullseye. Now the army rolls for saves. The dragonkin again rolls a useless melee result(but not a belly.) When totalling the army's saves results, do the dragonkin's 2 auto saves *again* apply, adding to whatever the rest of the army has rolled? Or are they "used up" for this particular action(by the bullseye save)? Either way, depending on the answer to the first paragraph, after saves have been applied, let us assume there is only one net point of damage(including autosaves, if necessary.) If the dragonkin only had one health point left, and the rest of its army consisted of only 2 health point and greater units, would the dragonkin have to be lost in that case, or would its rarity prevent the owner from having to lose it?
Thanks for any answers in advance. And no, this situation hasn't happened to me yet, but I want to be prepared. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:40 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

deputyfife wrote:
Let's say after rolling saves, my army takes 3 points of damage. The army has only uncommons and rares, including one uncommon dragonkin (who has not rolled a belly, and whose auto saves haven't been counted yet.) Can the dragonkin's 2 auto saves take off 2 points of damage, preventing any loss of units in this case? When is the proper time to add a dragonkin's auto saves?
What if a rare Dragonkin is targeted by a SAI or spell that does 4 points of damage, but allows an idividual save roll? If the dragonkin fails the save roll, does it still survive due to the 3 autosaves(since 1 point of damage can't kill a dragonkin?)

When you roll for saves, assuming the dragonkin does not roll belly, it's autosaved are added in. Just remember the order of the dice modifiers: Subtract, Divide, Multiply, Racial Modifiers, Add. Since at the Subtract step you don't go below zero, the worse result you can have by the Racial Modifiers step is zero. Since dragonkin auto-saves are added, they cannot be modified by any magic. Now in your example, after you've added in the dragonkin saves, you only have 1 point of damage left over. Since you have no commons, you are safe from this damage, and ignore it. If a Dragonkin is targeted by any effect that allows a save roll, if it rolls anything other than belly, it has saves equal to it's health. If the effect does not allow a save roll, then it's dead. Dragonkin cannot use their auto-saves unless it is rolled. For example a uncommon dragonkin targeted with 2 Fingers of Death, is dead. No roll, can't save. So in your second example, the dragonkin survives.

deputyfife wrote:
Let's get a little more specific:
Say a missile attack is rolled, and a bullseye comes up, among some regular missile hits. The bullseye(4 icons) is applied to a rare dragonkin. The dragonkin harmlessly rolls melee results for the save roll. However, the auto saves count for individual and army rolls, so 2 hits are repelled by autosaves. Do the remaining 2 hits apply to the dragonkin for the rest of this missile action(save roll, and applied results?) In other words, does this rare dragonkin now have only one health point left until this action is resolved? Regardless of the answer to that question, the dragonkin has survived the bullseye. Now the army rolls for saves. The dragonkin again rolls a useless melee result(but not a belly.) When totalling the army's saves results, do the dragonkin's 2 auto saves *again* apply, adding to whatever the rest of the army has rolled? Or are they "used up" for this particular action(by the bullseye save)? Either way, depending on the answer to the first paragraph, after saves have been applied, let us assume there is only one net point of damage(including autosaves, if necessary.) If the dragonkin only had one health point left, and the rest of its army consisted of only 2 health point and greater units, would the dragonkin have to be lost in that case, or would its rarity prevent the owner from having to lose it? Thanks for any answers in advance. And no, this situation hasn't happened to me yet, but I want to be prepared. Smile


Ok, now you are missing a major point of the rules. Razz Damage is never "saved up". If a SAI effect only applies damage that is less than the health of the target unit, then there is no effect. The die is not "wounded", the damage is just gone. A dragonkin in theory could come up with a save result any number of times in one action. If it is targeted multiple times with effects that allow a save, then it is rolled. That roll is resolved and then forgotten. If it dies, it goes back to the summoning pool. If it doesn't die, then it's still around when finally the army is rolled for saves. And if it doesn't roll belly, it's auto-saves are counted with the army.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:36 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Ok, now you are missing a major point of the rules. Razz Damage is never "saved up".


That is the one place where DD Duels messes people up (not that he'd had that experience, but I've noticed it with pepole who learn duels before they learn the base game.)


Last edited by cliffwiggs on Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:52 am GMT; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:38 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:

Ok, now you are missing a major point of the rules. Razz Damage is never "saved up". If a SAI effect only applies damage that is less than the health of the target unit, then there is no effect. The die is not "wounded", the damage is just gone. A dragonkin in theory could come up with a save result any number of times in one action. If it is targeted multiple times with effects that allow a save, then it is rolled. That roll is resolved and then forgotten. If it dies, it goes back to the summoning pool. If it doesn't die, then it's still around when finally the army is rolled for saves. And if it doesn't roll belly, it's auto-saves are counted with the army.


Well, that is what I thought. But it just seemed like such a waste, then, to get a Bullseye in some cases, since there are times I'd rather just add 4 more missile hits to my total than aim 4 bullseye icons at a single die. Either you guarantee killing most c/uc dice(except heavy), or take a chance a monster or rare rolls badly. But that definitely clears that up for me. Thanks.

Okay, next question: I think I understand the intent concerning multiple bullseye icons, but the language in the rules seems to leave room for interpretation. If I roll 2 bullseyes(8 icons), I can target all 8 icons at one die, or 4 icons at 2 separate dice, correct? What I'm getting at here is that I can't target 5 bullseye icons at one die and 3 bullseye icons at a second die, correct?

(By the way, this is part of why I think a comic book/sequential art format might be a very good idea for illustrating some of the trickiest situations and complex rules. Okay, this shameless plug for my other post is over.)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:35 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, now I have to ask, are you reading the new rules? In the new rules, it quite clear (I hope so anyway), that you can target multiple units. So if you have 4 points of Bullseye, you could target 4 commons, 2 uncommons, a common and a rare, or any other combination that adds up to 4. If you look at the section that talks about applying Special Action Icons (SAIs), then you'll see that anytime you get two or more of the same SAI, if that SAI targets health, then you can combine those for extra effect. For example, if you roll 2 4-point Bullseyes, you now have 8 points of Bullseyes that can be targeted any way you want. If you want to send 6 points at a rare (nearly always a sure kill), and 2 points at an uncommon, you can.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
OK, now I have to ask, are you reading the new rules? In the new rules, it quite clear (I hope so anyway), that you can target multiple units. So if you have 4 points of Bullseye, you could target 4 commons, 2 uncommons, a common and a rare, or any other combination that adds up to 4. If you look at the section that talks about applying Special Action Icons (SAIs), then you'll see that anytime you get two or more of the same SAI, if that SAI targets health, then you can combine those for extra effect. For example, if you roll 2 4-point Bullseyes, you now have 8 points of Bullseyes that can be targeted any way you want. If you want to send 6 points at a rare (nearly always a sure kill), and 2 points at an uncommon, you can.


Well, I've read the Revised TSR rules, the DCM rules, the SFR Basic rules, and the first 28 pages of the SFR Advanced rules, all in the past couple weeks, so it gets a little jumbled in my head. Embarassed
I was thinking one ruleset allowed any division of Bullseye icons. Would Smite be divisible, also?
Here's another newbie question that I can't remember, and don't have the rules with me now. (I know, I know, always carry them on you.)
Concerning spells that target an army, are the units in the reserve area considered an army? I know reserves can be targeted by magic, but for the spell that reduces magic results in half, can it be targeted at a player's reserves? (Then making the Feral strategy discussed yesterday more difficult to implement from reserves?)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:48 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, let's go back to the "no saved damage" rule again. Just to clarify, then, an army rolling magic at a terrain, targets another army with many different spells that cause damage. Not multiples of spells, completely different ones. This would be a fuitless effort, then, since each spell would be resolved on its own, so that whichever units in the army survived one spell attack would have full health for the next spell attack? Is this correct?

Is there any way in the new starter sets that you guys could include some fairly extensive, convoluted, and complex examples?
I'll post this somewhere more relevant, also, but just my personal vote:
the battle mats are great, especially for new players. They make it much easier on someone learning the game the first few times, so that the person doesn't have to keep in mind "Okay, that's my dead pile, and that one is my buried pile." This makes the battle mats most essential to a beginning player, one who might be hesitant to plop down extra $$ for a mat separate of the dice they already have. (This is if SFR even makes the mats again.) However, I realize the battle mats are too expensive to add to a starter set and keep the cost attractive to new buyers. Is there some way to make a cheaper battle mat, then, made of a thin cloth/fabric? Or you could print the battle mats in small sections(say, fourths of the current mats) that just have one corner of the current mat, such as dead, plus part of the middle "home" circle. Make them in different styles for the races, and randomly insert the various corners, and you can force us to buy packs to collect the battle mat pieces. Shocked Twisted Evil
Heck, there's already people who want one of each dice bag. (Anybody have a spare red?)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

deputyfife wrote:
I was thinking one ruleset allowed any division of Bullseye icons. Would Smite be divisible, also?


Those would be the current rules (which is all that matters). It was the old rules that kept Bulleye to a single unit. But yes, any SAI that targets 'X Health' can be split. That includes most SAI's. (and smite)

deputyfife wrote:
Concerning spells that target an army, are the units in the reserve area considered an army?


Yes they are and casting Dancing Lights on the reserves is a very popular tactic.

Cliff
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

deputyfife wrote:
so that whichever units in the army survived one spell attack would have full health for the next spell attack? Is this correct?


Correct, each spell is resolved seperately. So that damage from a hail storm is different than the damage from a volcanic eruption and is different from a Foul Water spell.

Within each spell resolution, you must take as much damage as possible, but you can not take more damage than needed. Thats why you ignore the odd point or two.

deputyfife wrote:
Is there any way in the new starter sets that you guys could include some fairly extensive, convoluted, and complex examples?

Do you have an example in mind? Most new players will judge a game by the rules that are included with the starter (I buy one start of most games just to see what the mechanics are). I'd hate to scare off new people by having them think the game is super complex.

deputyfife wrote:
the battle mats are great, especially for new players.

Chuck, that reminds me, when you come to visit make sure I show you the prototype Will designed for this.

deputyfife wrote:
Is there some way to make a cheaper battle mat, then, made of a thin cloth/fabric?


Laughing TSR did exactly what you are describing. I think SFR is sold out of them, but they were ugly and only worked well for 4 player games.

Almost all tournament level play is done with index cards or just dice on the table in little groups (or plastic butter tub lids Razz ) or something that people design themselves. I made my own cards that I use...
http://www.wiggs.us/2003July/DSC00365.jpg
Here you can see what John K does:
http://www.wiggs.us/2003July/DSC00379.jpg
(BTW - I ended up winning that game, no small feat considering my opponent.)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Here you can see what John K does:
http://www.wiggs.us/2003July/DSC00379.jpg


I have a set of cards like John's. Do you remember who it was who made those cards? (I'll see if I can post some images of mine for anyone interested-probably on the DDRC web site.)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DDiceRC wrote:

I have a set of cards like John's. Do you remember who it was who made those cards? (I'll see if I can post some images of mine for anyone interested-probably on the DDRC web site.)


I do not remember. I know they were hand drawn for him. He picked the races and it was fairly reasonable for custom artwork.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:20 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:

deputyfife wrote:
Is there any way in the new starter sets that you guys could include some fairly extensive, convoluted, and complex examples?

Do you have an example in mind? Most new players will judge a game by the rules that are included with the starter (I buy one start of most games just to see what the mechanics are). I'd hate to scare off new people by having them think the game is super complex.


Good point. What about having extensive, convoluted examples on the website, with a mention of the website page for such examples somewhere in the rulebook?
Besides, if the rulebook had big, colorful pictures, that doesn't make it seem so hard to read. Smile

Quote:
deputyfife wrote:
Is there some way to make a cheaper battle mat, then, made of a thin cloth/fabric?


Laughing TSR did exactly what you are describing. I think SFR is sold out of them, but they were ugly and only worked well for 4 player games.


Those are the ones I am talking about--except that I actually like them. They aren't totally convenient for 2 players(a far reach for your horde army), but not terrible. The ones TSR sold were thick, and yes, the two-toned printing wasn't very pretty, but with today's better & cheaper printing methods, I'm betting a very nice picture could be silkscreened onto a fabric (in 4-color.) Plus, the old ones were pretty bulky, it'd be cheaper to make such a mat on that very thin, flimsy kind of fabric that they sell at sewing stores by the yard.

Quote:
Almost all tournament level play is done with index cards or just dice on the table in little groups (or plastic butter tub lids Razz ) or something that people design themselves. I made my own cards that I use...
http://www.wiggs.us/2003July/DSC00365.jpg


Those are pretty nifty, and the existing box cover artwork gives a pretty good mix for the areas, with how you've done them. Did you cut off the covers to the kickers, write graphics, and laminate? Or go the fancy way, get a graphic file of the art, digitally add the titles, print and laminate?

Why doesn't SFR give us some of those in the new starters? Smile
You could even vary the artwork.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

deputyfife wrote:
Or go the fancy way, get a graphic file of the art, digitally add the titles, print and laminate?


I am a computer guy. I digitally created them and then laminated them.

I find they help me stay focused and not to make stupid mistakes while I'm playing
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