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TheLazyhase
common
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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 Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:27 pm GMT Post subject: Question about Open Grave |
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Hello.
I re-read Open Grave recently. I then remarked two thing :
* the easier one is it only work against army-level effect, so Open Grave don't help against Bullseye, Kick, Coil, and other thing like that. Not really questions here.
* the more tricky one is the bolded part :
| Quote: |
Target any army. Until the beginning of your next turn, for any army-targeting effect that causes damage to the target army, any units taken as casualties immediately go to the reserve area rather than the DUA. Multiple castings target multiple armies
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If I read this correctly, Open Grave does not help against thing like Dragon breath, rare dragonkin breath, seize, Choke, and everything that bury X health as opposed to doing X damage. Am I right ? Is there less obvious source which can avoid the Open Grave ressurection clause ? |
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dburkley
rare
Director
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1200
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:06 pm GMT Post subject: |
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As you indicated earlier, Open Grave has no effect on units killed by individual targetting effects (like Gore, Hug, Impale, Smother).
Open Grave has no effect on units killed by the Smite SAI.
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Daniel Burkley
US National Champion (DEXCON 2007, 2009, 2010)
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"No Magicians": GENCON 2008
"Single Race": DEXCON 2008, GENCON 2010, 2011, 2014 (co-champion), 2017 |
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TheLazyhase
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:51 am GMT Post subject: |
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| dburkley wrote: | | As you indicated earlier, Open Grave has no effect on units killed by individual targetting effects (like Gore, Hug, Impale, Smother). |
And also non-individual non-damage effect, like the rare dragonkin breath ? All the one where you choose an army and its controller kill x health of unit.
| dburkley wrote: | | Open Grave has no effect on units killed by the Smite SAI. |
Why ? To be honest, it seem completely random that smite "beat" open grave, and it open the question of whether damage from counter, firestorm, dragon attack, and such, bypass open grave too. |
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Drachenwurfel
uncommon
Stockholder
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 970
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:29 am GMT Post subject: |
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I think the same, smite won't fit.
Smite is a Army targeting effect.
Ok, it has the phrase " Army or unit" but you can have Even one, an Army or a Single unit have attacked by smite.
The next, Open Grave is no save, the Units die, and are redirected to the reserves.
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:32 am GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Smite: Special (melee attack); Normal (dragon attack or melee avoidance)
During a melee attack, each Smite result immediately inflicts one point of damage on the defending army or unit; no saves (including those provided by spells) can stop this damage. During a dragon attack or melee avoidance roll, Smite generates melee results |
The reason that Open Grave does not work against Smite is simple. If you read the description of Smite it says "...no saves (including those provided by spells) can stop this damage." Open Grave is a spell. Therefore it cannot stop Smite from killing units.
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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TheLazyhase
common
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:45 am GMT Post subject: |
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| chuckpint wrote: | | The reason that Open Grave does not work against Smite is simple. If you read the description of Smite it says "...no saves (including those provided by spells) can stop this damage." Open Grave is a spell. Therefore it cannot stop Smite from killing units. |
But open grave does not provide save, and does not stop damage in any way. I still don't see the connection. |
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DialFforFunky
rare
Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 1992
Location: Groningen
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:46 am GMT Post subject: |
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| chuckpint wrote: |
The reason that Open Grave does not work against Smite is simple. If you read the description of Smite it says "...no saves (including those provided by spells) can stop this damage." Open Grave is a spell. Therefore it cannot stop Smite from killing units. |
That's a remarkable explanation. Open grave does not seem to provide saves, so the 'no saves part' does not seem applicable to me. The issue for me would be that 'saves' seems to be relatively strictly defined as something that prevents damage, whereas open grave does no such thing. I don't recall any other instance in the rulebook where the term 'save' is used to denote 'preventing something from entering the DUA' rather than 'preventing something from getting damaged'.
F
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:09 am GMT Post subject: |
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This is from the section titled "Damage": | Quote: | The Stoneskin Rule: The Stoneskin Rule is a benchmark that is applied when determining if an effect can do damage (either normal melee/missile hits, spells or SAIs) to the target when it is magically protected, either by spells that provide saves or prevent units that are killed from going to the dead unit area (e.g. Open Grave). It is named after the most common spell that protects an army from damage – Stoneskin.
This rule has one condition in its application: an army is the target of the damage, either from normal (melee/missile) means, spells or SAIs. Hence, if an individual unit in a magically protected army is specifically targeted with a damaging effect, that unit (or units) does not receive the benefit of the saving effect from the spell and may suffer the damage.
The exception to this rule is SAIs that state: “no saves (including those provided by spells)”. The damage from these army-targeting SAIs cannot be avoided by magical protection. |
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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DialFforFunky
rare
Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 1992
Location: Groningen
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:21 am GMT Post subject: |
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| chuckpint wrote: | This is from the section titled "Damage": | Quote: | The Stoneskin Rule: The Stoneskin Rule is a benchmark that is applied when determining if an effect can do damage (either normal melee/missile hits, spells or SAIs) to the target when it is magically protected, either by spells that provide saves or prevent units that are killed from going to the dead unit area (e.g. Open Grave). It is named after the most common spell that protects an army from damage – Stoneskin.
This rule has one condition in its application: an army is the target of the damage, either from normal (melee/missile) means, spells or SAIs. Hence, if an individual unit in a magically protected army is specifically targeted with a damaging effect, that unit (or units) does not receive the benefit of the saving effect from the spell and may suffer the damage.
The exception to this rule is SAIs that state: “no saves (including those provided by spells)”. The damage from these army-targeting SAIs cannot be avoided by magical protection. |
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Ah, great! Thanks!
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AC
common
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 317
Location: DC GMA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:18 pm GMT Post subject: |
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"A href=" doesn't seem to do anything, so copy/paste it is.
From last July 11: http://sfr-inc.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3714
From last July 16: http://sfr-inc.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3721
(Re: the last post from the first topic: Consider this a reminder.)
There are doubtless many other times this has come up; these are just the two most recent that I found. Yes, the term "magical saves" suggests to a lot of people numerical saves (i.e., damage prevention) and not Open Grave. However, the rule specifically cites Open Grave, so there's not a lot of reason to be caught off guard by its inclusion. Maybe we can begin to see why Mr. Pint on occasion seems just a tad annoyed when responding to some of these questions.  |
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TheLazyhase
common
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:33 am GMT Post subject: |
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| AC wrote: | | There are doubtless many other times this has come up; these are just the two most recent that I found. Yes, the term "magical saves" suggests to a lot of people numerical saves (i.e., damage prevention) and not Open Grave. However, the rule specifically cites Open Grave, so there's not a lot of reason to be caught off guard by its inclusion. Maybe we can begin to see why Mr. Pint on occasion seems just a tad annoyed when responding to some of these questions. |
And when I searched for Open Grave, I didn't find thoses topic on the first page result. And there is no FAQ. And the first one did not say anything about Open Grave, which does not look like a save effect at all, while the second say nothing things like the dragonkin breath (which are neither damage nor individual target ; choke and seize were brainfart). So it's less easy than what you may believe to find this piece of information.
Don't forget that finding information you're already aware of is a lot easier, and that, since the Dragon Dice logic is pretty different than TCG or RPG logic, there is a lot of preformed reasonment to shed.
I also know I nitpick significantly more than what I am used to do, simply because I need to understand them enough to (try to) code them. (and it lead to some of the most silly queston, like the Dragon Summoning one with bicolor dice, because when I add something for the Dragon Summoning SAI, it's not directly engraved on a dice but it exist as a part addeable to any dice) |
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