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cliffwiggs
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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 Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:19 pm GMT Post subject: 'Magic Action' |
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I'm partially stirring the pot and partially considering the legality of Pi's latest passive aggressive army.
So ... the term 'Magic Action'.
via that thing at the back of the rulebook, A cantrip resolution is not a magic action...
| Quote: | | Magic Action: This action consists of the acting army rolling for magic results, announcing then resolving spells. Note: the casting of spells from a Cantrip special action icon during a non-magic action or save roll is not considered a magic action, but the resolution of a unique resolution SAI. Also, a Magic Negation roll is not considered a Magic Action. |
From the SAI section...
| Quote: | | Multiplicity: This term refers to casting the same spell more than once during a single magic action or in the resolution of the Cantrip SAI during a non-magic action. |
(remember this, I'll come back to it)
| Quote: | This spell can be cast only once per magic action;
Self-explanatory. Reason: when the spell is cast, only one unique target or condition exists that can be affected by the spell (e.g. a player’s dead unit area) or the spell is too powerful to allow multiple castings during the same magic action. |
This would imply that the term 'once per magic action' does treat the Cantrip SAI resolution as a 'magic action'.
So depending on the scope, it either is or isn't?
| Quote: | Backlash Casting Cost: 4 Spell List: Feral
Target any terrain. Until the beginning of your next turn, if any army at the target terrain takes a magic action and casts magic, then, after all spells are resolved, the army must save against an amount of damage equal to the combined casting costs of all spells cast. For an army to be affected by a Backlash, this spell must be in effect before the magic action has begun. Multiple castings target multiple terrains. |
1) If I use a cantrip during a save roll, do I have to save from backlash damage? I always thought the answer was yes, but I think now it should be no.
2) If I do a real magic action as part of my march, then while saving against the backlash damage, I use a cantrip. I don't have to save against the cantrip magic? The answer has to be no, or you setup an infinite loop where I can finger my oppoent to death while saving against backlash. if I hide a single unit at the end of that loop or use open grave, then all the built up damage just disappears...
So getting back to Pi's army...
| Quote: | Night Moves Casting Cost: 9 Spell List: Undead
Target any of your armies containing an Undead unit at a terrain. The army immediately attempts to maneuver the terrain. Opponents at the terrain may counter-maneuver as usual. This spell can be cast only once per magic action. |
In this instance, I think that the intention is that the cantrip is a magic action.
So you start with a real magic action as part of the march and cast night moves. As part of that you activate a wall of thorns. While saving against the wall of thorns you can more cantrips... Are you still 'in' the original magic action or have you started a new one?
If it is a new one, then this new cantrip action can casts another nightmoves (which just cycles).
I say all this to give you a headache and remind you how much we don't like cantrip because of how it breaks the rules.
NOW - I propose a simple change (to either rules or interpretation). The rules seem pretty clear that a cantrip sai resolution is not a magic action, except in one place; the definition of multiplicity.
I propose that the reference above means that a cantrip resolution applies to terms like 'multiple castings increase...', but that it does NOT apply to 'once per magic action'. Thus any spell which makes reference to once per 'magic action' become uncastable via a cantrip sai resolution.
This fits the story of a cantrip as a quick simple spell and it removes many many of the headaches that cantrip and cantrip induced cantrip's can cause.
It also makes an army like Pi's illegal. 
If we DON"T interpret the rules like this... lets just say you won't want to be the judge during battlefest at gencon this year  JohnK is finally gonna get beat...
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TheLazyhase
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:49 pm GMT Post subject: Re: 'Magic Action' |
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| cliffwiggs wrote: |
| Quote: | Backlash Casting Cost: 4 Spell List: Feral
Target any terrain. Until the beginning of your next turn, if any army at the target terrain takes a magic action and casts magic, then, after all spells are resolved, the army must save against an amount of damage equal to the combined casting costs of all spells cast. For an army to be affected by a Backlash, this spell must be in effect before the magic action has begun. Multiple castings target multiple terrains. |
1) If I use a cantrip during a save roll, do I have to save from backlash damage? I always thought the answer was yes, but I think now it should be no.
2) If I do a real magic action as part of my march, then while saving against the backlash damage, I use a cantrip. I don't have to save against the cantrip magic? The answer has to be no, or you setup an infinite loop where I can finger my oppoent to death while saving against backlash. if I hide a single unit at the end of that loop or use open grave, then all the built up damage just disappears...
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I would simply not allow to roll against backlash damage during cantrip, treating it the same way as damage from a counter face. To be honest, rolling an army for save during SAI is a hughe pain for my project, so if it can be eradicated all the better.
| cliffwiggs wrote: |
I propose that the reference above means that a cantrip resolution applies to terms like 'multiple castings increase...', but that it does NOT apply to 'once per magic action'. Thus any spell which makes reference to once per 'magic action' become uncastable via a cantrip sai resolution.
This fits the story of a cantrip as a quick simple spell and it removes many many of the headaches that cantrip and cantrip induced cantrip's can cause.
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It seem to work as a way to avoid infinite loop, but I believe simply making thoses spells "once per march" instead of "once per magic action" also do the trick without easily missed fine print. |
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AC
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Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 317
Location: DC GMA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:53 pm GMT Post subject: |
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This actually came up just recently in an on-line game between Dolus and myself, wherein I was (and perhaps both of us were) uncertain as to whether I could cast Spirit Furnace -- a restricted spell -- with a Cantrip. I seemed to recall that it had been deemed legal before, though I did not find the post (at the time), and my opponent concurred, and as it ended up being all for nothing, we did not fret over it. The point is that in my scouring the rules for a definitive answer, I got hung up on the definition of "magic action" and the vagueness surrounding whether or not something that could only happen once per magic action could happen at all during a Cantrip, which is explicitly not a magic action.
Although it would preclude future instances of Spirit Furnace Cantrips -- and the last ditch effort, Hail Mary maneuver we (Goblins) all dream of executing in the face of doom -- I can certainly see merit to a rule change that would restrict once per magic action spells exclusively to actual "magic actions." Reining in Cantrip a bit might not be too bad at all.
Last edited by AC on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:07 pm GMT; edited 1 time in total |
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piMaster
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:05 pm GMT Post subject: Re: 'Magic Action' |
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| cliffwiggs wrote: | | I say all this to give you a headache and remind you how much we don't like cantrip because of how it breaks the rules. |
The solution seems obvious then: if cantrip is a constant pain in the @&^ which keeps breaking the rules, then cantrip itself should be changed.
a proposal:
During a magic action or magic negation roll, cantrip generates magic results.
During a non-magic non-maneuver roll, for each unit that generates cantrip, choose one of the following effects (based on the color(s) of the die that rolled the cantrip):
* Black (weakening) - choose any opposing enemy army. One unit in the target army must be demoted or killed (opponent's choice).
* Blue (windy transport) - one unit from this army may be moved to any other of your armies or one unit from any of your other armies may join this army.
* Gold (stone shield) - the army gains four automatic save results until the end of the owner's next turn.
* Green (life spring) - recruite or promote one unit in this army
* Red (fireball) - choose any opposing enemy unit. Target unit is killed unless it makes a save avoidance roll. |
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DialFforFunky
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Joined: 11 May 2010
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Location: Groningen
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:21 pm GMT Post subject: Re: 'Magic Action' |
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| TheLazyhase wrote: | | It seem to work as a way to avoid infinite loop, but I believe simply making those spells "once per march" instead of "once per magic action" also do the trick without easily missed fine print. |
My thoughts exactly.
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AC
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:36 pm GMT Post subject: |
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I've played around with different concepts for simplified magic effects such as piMaster suggests when working on DDice variations, so I know that it takes some juggling to find balance, but it's theoretically workable. My concern is that this would really take a hammer to Magic Rares. A quick Path or pair of Watery Doubles didn't represent the potentially gamebreaking aspect of the SAI, and losing such versatility, on surface examination, would look to severely undercut a Magic Rare or Cantrip-face Monster's potency -- perhaps to the point of inferior comparison to other Rares. Now, at the same time, some complain that magic is too powerful, so this might be to their tastes.
Remember, too, that any such solution (and I understand that piMaster's proposal was a rough idea) must scale to the number of icons, as there are two (off the top of my head) Magic Rares that have a 3-Cantrip face.
Lazyhase's suggestion is not directed at the broader concern of Cantrip's power, but it does neatly eliminate potential repetition of one-time spells. We would probably still need to address the basic idea of "magic action" and what Cantrip means in that context. |
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piMaster
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:17 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| AC wrote: | | Remember, too, that any such solution (and I understand that piMaster's proposal was a rough idea) must scale to the number of icons, as there are two (off the top of my head) Magic Rares that have a 3-Cantrip face. |
I thought of that, but decided that it would be better the way I proposed it. One, it simplifies things greatly. Two, amazon mages are already hobbled by their racial abilities. Three, ashbringers are somewhat weak as well compared to other rare mages.
Another advantage is that it helps move the game along faster. Interupting a roll to perform a magic action (which is the longest action in the game) can be a real drain on time. This helps things move along faster and smoother and fits in with Cliff's idea of cantrip being a quick spell, not some complex process like it is now. |
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Urfaes
dragonmount
Joined: 03 Dec 2012
Posts: 32
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:30 pm GMT Post subject: Re: 'Magic Action' |
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| TheLazyhase wrote: | | It seem to work as a way to avoid infinite loop, but I believe simply making thoses spells "once per march" instead of "once per magic action" also do the trick without easily missed fine print. |
I have to agree; I don't think it's Cantrip that's broken if the complaint is with Night Moves and Spirit Furnace, both of which are once per magic action. Change them to once per march or turn, and Cantrip can't cast them multiple times.
Are there really that many instances where Cantrip completely wrecks the game? |
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cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
Chief Wheedler
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 10794
Location: Cumming, GA - USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:36 pm GMT Post subject: Re: 'Magic Action' |
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| TheLazyhase wrote: | To be honest, rolling an army for save during SAI is a hughe pain for my project, so if it can be eradicated all the better.
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And that of course is my goal (sarcasm)
| Urfaes wrote: |
Are there really that many instances where Cantrip completely wrecks the game? |
Not as many as their used to be. Its mostly when you combine them to do things like night moves or force an army in the middle of calculating a roll to roll again against something different (requiring you to 'remember' the original result). It used to be worse with the old routing rule too.
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cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
Chief Wheedler
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 10794
Location: Cumming, GA - USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:40 pm GMT Post subject: Re: 'Magic Action' |
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| piMaster wrote: |
The solution seems obvious then: if cantrip is a constant pain in the @&^ which keeps breaking the rules, then cantrip itself should be changed.
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I was going to propose something drastic for the infamous 3.0.
Either an immediate effect such as you describe (maybe including the terrain color for added effect)
OR
just saying that cantrips can't be combined restricting them to 4 pt spells and lower.
I hadn't decided yet, but am now leaning towards the former. This would also help to control the power of magic as it removes many of the options you have available to you during a cantrip resolution.
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dburkley
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Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:03 pm GMT Post subject: Re: 'Magic Action' |
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| cliffwiggs wrote: | | ... just saying that cantrips can't be combined restricting them to 4 pt spells and lower. |
I had a similar thought: Rolling a Cantrip SAI during a non-magic acition generates magic that can only be used to cast spells from the "Cantrip Spell List" that is a subset of the existing spell list. This list could be restricted to spells of casting cost 4 or less, or a subset of spells that could be useful and simple to resolve without causing complications.
That sub-set of spells permitted during a Cantrip resolution should include one spell of each color that can be cast from Reserve.
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US National Champion (DEXCON 2007, 2009, 2010)
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TheLazyhase
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:19 am GMT Post subject: Re: 'Magic Action' |
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| cliffwiggs wrote: |
just saying that cantrips can't be combined restricting them to 4 pt spells and lower.
I hadn't decided yet, but am now leaning towards the former. This would also help to control the power of magic as it removes many of the options you have available to you during a cantrip resolution. |
This seem a pretty good solution too. Spirit furnace (4pts) would then still allow for big spell, but this hardly seem useable for infinite loop or game-breaking action given the cost. |
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DEEPBLUEB2
monster
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:11 am GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 1) If I use a cantrip during a save roll, do I have to save from backlash damage? I always thought the answer was yes, but I think now it should be no.
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Funny...
I had the same thought, as I looked for other ways that might work similatr to Pi's Eternal Night Moves. |
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DEEPBLUEB2
monster
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:14 am GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 1) If I use a cantrip during a save roll, do I have to save from backlash damage? I always thought the answer was yes, but I think now it should be no.
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Funny...
I had the same thought, as I looked for other ways that might work similatr to Pi's Eternal Night Moves.
| Quote: | Teleport: Normal (maneuver); Special (any action or non-maneuver avoidance roll)
During a maneuver or maneuver avoidance roll, Teleport generates maneuver results. During any action or non-maneuver avoidance roll, the teleporting unit may immediately move itself and up to three health-worth of units in the army containing this unit to any terrain. |
Since teleport works during the counter melee section...I think anyways,
it's part of the melee action.
So the avoidance roll for backlash, might still be considered part of the magic action...
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Dolus
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:37 am GMT Post subject: |
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| I always assumed no. I can't remember off-hand why I came to that conclusion. Something about the specific wording of Backlash I think. I don't have time to re-read it now, but I'm sure Chuck will give us an answer and explanation soon enough. |
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TheLazyhase
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:54 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Well, come to think of it, you cannot roll for save against backlash immedatly after the cantrip is cast and before the initial roll is fully resolved, because you would need to note the precise face of every dice before rolling them, and after the save roll return them to their face, which is impractical.
So, there is only 4 solutions for backlash:
* the backlash damage is inflicted and saved against only after the current roll is resolved.
* backlash does not work against cantrip. (certainly the simpler option !)
* backlash on cantrip cannot be saved against (since you cannot roll again unresolved dice before they are resolved)
* only the mage that rolled cantrip are affected by the damage and rolled against it ; in essence, only the dice that rolled cantrip are part of the "magic action" |
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Dolus
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:00 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| TheLazyhase wrote: | | which is impractical. |
Impractical does not mean impossible.  Don't one of the most recent tips and tricks involve the necessity of "remembering" a roll? I recall reading something recently somewhere where you basically had to remember a roll when you re-roll your dice for something new.
Well, here's one. Make a melee attack. Get some cantrips. Cast volcanic eruption on the terrain where you're making the melee attack. Volcanic eruption would occur before you resolve the melee, so you would have to re-roll your army. But then you'll have to remember what results you had. |
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cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:12 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Dolus wrote: | | TheLazyhase wrote: | | which is impractical. |
Impractical does not mean impossible. |
yup, we try to avoid these situations, but it isn't enough to make them illegal just because they are a pain to do.
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TheLazyhase
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:14 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Well, the less often it happen, the better. And if thoses freak case can go away, it would be an improvement.
(that being said, both the volcanic eruption and the backlash cases are pretty cornercase, so I understand that it's not at the top of priority for rule improvement) |
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DialFforFunky
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:29 pm GMT Post subject: |
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This talking about Cantrip + Backlash makes me feel like I have a thick skull or something, as I kind of fail to see the issue  . Backlash clearly calls for a magic action, while
| Quote: | | Magic Action: This action consists of the acting army rolling for magic results, announcing then resolving spells. Note: the casting of spells from a Cantrip special action icon during a non-magic action or save roll is not considered a magic action, but the resolution of a unique resolution SAI. Also, a Magic Negation roll is not considered a Magic Action. |
And with the obnoxious spells changed to 'once per march', I fail to see anything else that still needs fixing...
F
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