SFR, Inc.

[cliffwiggs]

The issue is whether a cantrip resolution sai is a 'magic action' or not.

I felt like it was used as such in some cases and not others.

i.e. 'one per magic action' treats cantrip as a magic action... or does it?

thats what needs to be clarified.

I assume thats what you were asking about and you understand the infinite loop that backlash could create it if it done the other way...
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[TheLazyhase]

In the worst case scenario, you may not only have to note the result of every dice : if you have several identical dice, you may need to keep trace of which of thoses dice rolled what in subsequent roll.

The worst case (and very specific) scenario : A is opposed to B
* army A have some mage with cantrip, and two identical unit of type "x". It do a melee attack against B. The two "x" do different result, and the mages roll enough cantrip to do a Volcanic Eruption. Players note the army A result to finish the melee attack resolution afterward
* B roll for save, and have enough cantrip to cast Haunt.
* The haunt army of B roll some damage and a Choke SAI.
* The army A roll for save. One of the "x" unit roll an ID.
At this moment, since Choke kill one of the "x" unit, the player A have to know what the "x" unit that rolled ID was rolling in the melee attack.

Of course, if players don't explicitely try to provoke that, the odds of this happening are extremely low, and with a bit of good will it can be resolved. It just show that thoses fringes cases can be extremely hard to follow.

[DialFforFunky]

[DEEPBLUEB2]

I know SFR is against infinite loops...
that's why Group Monster's reroll is deemed as not to allow it's results to be counted say...as an Id...ie
swallow looks for an Id...but group monsters can't roll an Id...
this is to kill the infinite loop...somewhere it caused an issue, so that's why group monster's IDs work that way.

So my guess is, night moves will need to be reworded...if SFR does not want an infinte loop...

I think backlash was clarified with the magic action explanation.

[Dolus]

The combo was wall of thorns. You maneuver up, roll for wall of thorns, get cantrips, cast night moves, maneuver up, etc.

The bad thing about once per turn spells is now if I do a second magic march action in my turn, I'm excluded from certain spells. Not horrible, but inconvenient.

[chuckpint]

1. Cast Wall of Thorns/Night Moves/Open Grave.
2. Move the terrain up with Night Moves.
3. During the save against the Wall of Thorns, generate enough Cantrips to cast another Night Moves.
4. Repeat until 8th face (assuming enough Cantrips).

And @ Dolus, no, its not being proposed once per turn, but once per march. So you can cast a "once per march" spell twice in your turn assuming the right conditions.
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[AC]

Not much to add beyond agreement that some sort of "Magic results from multiple Cantrip SAI rolled not during a magic action may not be combined" rule change might do the trick to weaken Cantrip slightly and to confound the possibility of loops.

The only spells I'm recalling that could be cast and would require any kind of army roll would be Hailstorm -- which at only 2 points one would probably not cast on an army containing other Cantrip units, but we cannot discount it -- and Foul Water, for which only 1-health units are rolled. I mention these spells because while neither permits a player to "loop" his own army, the former could theoretically unleash a "ping-pong loop," which isn't necessarily a gamebreaker but which could certainly cause headaches. No other spell of 4 or fewer points could generate an opposing Cantrip, unless one wasted a 1-point Firebolt on a 3-health unit.

One could also restrict the Cantrip spell list to those spells that can be cast from Reserves, but I for one would consider that too delimiting for the apparent purpose.

My (new) major hesitation with the Cantrip-specific spell effects (i.e., "Black does this and Red does this") is that it essentially splits Cantrip into roughly 10 new SAI's. It's certainly easily within the realm of expectation that a player could memorize 5 more spells, but it would still be 5 more spells with which a new player has to grapple.

[TheLazyhase]

[DialFforFunky]

[TheLazyhase]

[cliffwiggs]

[CalicoCorsair]

This is all too complicated O.o

The rules define Cantrip already: the casting of spells from a Cantrip special action icon during a non-magic action or save roll is not considered a magic action

So basically, Cantrip only counts as part of a magic action - during a magic action, otherwise Cantrip is an SAI resolution, which is NOT a magic action.

So . . . "once per magic action" obviously does not include the Cantrip SAI during a non-magic action or save roll.

The rules already make it clear, why are we complicating it further?

[piMaster]

Because we can?

[Urfaes]

I'm actually curious about the probability of all this; it doesn't seem likely to get a one turn 8th face. I can see it, maybe, happening from the 6th. Also, the Night Moves issue isn't really an issue, since Wall of Thorns would probably have been cast on the first march. Unless you roll 17 points of cantrip on a maneuver roll. Not likely.

Which leaves the second march for the maneuver and damage where you roll for 9 cantrips and cast Night Moves. To take more damage and look for another 9 cantrips. All of which seems fairly unlikely and necessitates an army built specifically for that function under Battlefest because the build suggested in the Tips thread can't be built otherwise except under 118 point or higher games.

I don't see those odds as game breaking. I admit, however, that I am not a statistician.

[CalicoCorsair]

If it's really just a problem for people thinking that someone's going to "possibly" be able to cast a lot of Night Moves . . .

Then here's an easier way to go about it, rather than messing with the rules and overcomplicating:

1. I know my opponent is playing undead
2. I know my opponent has the ability to cast Night Moves off of cantrips due to knowing what his armies are after the reveal.
3. I never leave a terrain undefended, just in case.

Since, after all, Night Moves does allow a counter-maneuver as usual.

I don't see the problem. It's like I was saying with that whole other thread where people were annoyed that the "Path to Victory" worked. If I'm playing vs. someone with Feral, and I see that they may be using Cantrips or Gold to cast Path, then I try not to leave a terrain undefended. There.

The thing is, that I'm a newb player, and I don't see a problem with this. That's how games like this are supposed to work, I'd thought. Sometimes, people find ways that make it easy to win, and you have to think of ways to counter that.

[cliffwiggs]

[cliffwiggs]

[AC]

The direction of this thread is not about the Battlefest Wall of Thorns/Night Moves loop potential. That is simply an extreme example that illustrates that ambiguity in the rules regarding Cantrip enables people to execute actions not in line with the intent. Cantrip's propensity to create "non-actions within actions" -- particularly non-actions that but for terminology seem indistinguishable from regular actions -- can overcomplicate gameplay. It's about filling in the cracks to prevent potential confusion and to ensure fluidity of play.

There is also a longstanding concern regarding the potency of magic and imbalances created by Cantrip. If a small change addresses both the more obnoxious instances of Cantrip and its power relative to other SAI's, then it is worth considering.

(If a spell can only be cast "one per magic action," but a Cantrip is not a magic action, then technically one can cast such a spell twice in a single action, either from rolling a sufficient number of Cantrips or by utilizing some other effect to generate multiple rolls. The intent of the restriction, however, is that "the spell is too powerful to allow multiple castings" (Starter Rules, p.32). The phrasing of Cantrip rules allows one to circumvent the object of the Multiplicity rules.

The solution is to rephrase the Cantrip rules. If at the same time the rule might be in part rewritten to cover concerns raised in prior conversations, it represents an opportunity to tackle both items in the same discussion.)

[DEEPBLUEB2]

[DEEPBLUEB2]

So...
if what is the ruling on Backlash?

Is it considered that the avoidance roll is part of the magic action?

IF so...
would sneak attack work during the avoidance roll of Backlash?