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klypto
dragonfoal
Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Mattoon, IL
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 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:35 am GMT Post subject: monster sai abilites and targeting |
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the rules say monster SAI's say they happen 4 times unless otherwise stated. SAI's read in a few ways. My question is which of these results make 4 of that results, and why. Cantrip I'd say yes, questionable on poison, and I think no to flame. But it is not definitive so I am not certain
Flame: Special (melee attack)
During a melee attack, choose up to two health-worth of units in the defending army to be immediately killed
and buried with no save possible
Poison: Special (melee attack)
During a melee attack, choose one health-worth of units in the defending army per Poison result
generated. Each target unit must immediately generate a save or be killed. Any units that are
killed must roll a save or be buried.
Cantrip: Normal (magic action or magic negation); Unique (non-magic action, save roll, or
non-maneuver avoidance)
During a magic action or magic negation roll, Cantrip generates magic results. During any
non-magic action, save roll or non-maneuver avoidance roll, Cantrip can be used to purchase
spells that are immediately resolved.
My question is which of these results make 4 of that results, and why. Cantrip I'd say yes, questionable on poison, and I think no to flame. But it is not definitive so I am not certain
Also I am almost certain on this but just feel the need to check, When you are on an eighth face you double saves when targeted. What actions target?
Sorry if these have been answered, I've been trying to search the forums and it doesn't work too well. |
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loligarchy
common
Stockholder
Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 251
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:26 pm GMT Post subject: Re: monster sai abilites and targeting |
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| klypto wrote: | the rules say monster SAI's say they happen 4 times unless otherwise stated. SAI's read in a few ways. My question is which of these results make 4 of that results, and why. Cantrip I'd say yes, questionable on poison, and I think no to flame. But it is not definitive so I am not certain
Flame: Special (melee attack)
During a melee attack, choose up to two health-worth of units in the defending army to be immediately killed
and buried with no save possible
Poison: Special (melee attack)
During a melee attack, choose one health-worth of units in the defending army per Poison result
generated. Each target unit must immediately generate a save or be killed. Any units that are
killed must roll a save or be buried.
Cantrip: Normal (magic action or magic negation); Unique (non-magic action, save roll, or
non-maneuver avoidance)
During a magic action or magic negation roll, Cantrip generates magic results. During any
non-magic action, save roll or non-maneuver avoidance roll, Cantrip can be used to purchase
spells that are immediately resolved.
My question is which of these results make 4 of that results, and why. Cantrip I'd say yes, questionable on poison, and I think no to flame. But it is not definitive so I am not certain
Also I am almost certain on this but just feel the need to check, When you are on an eighth face you double saves when targeted. What actions target?
Sorry if these have been answered, I've been trying to search the forums and it doesn't work too well. |
The specific notation in the rules states:
| Rulebook v2.8 Page 42 wrote: |
The SAIs on six-sided dice generate as many results as the number of icons shown on the die face.
The SAIs on ten-sided dice generates four results unless stated otherwise in the SAI description.
The SAIs on the rare (3 health) magical items generates three results unless stated otherwise in the SAI description.
The SAIs on the medallions generates four results unless stated otherwise in the SAI description. |
The short version is that yes, Flame is two because it says its two, Poison and Cantrip do not say a total number of health effected so on a monster they count as four results.
The big thing here is that you have to remember that certain types of SAIs have their own targetting mechanics. So when you look at an SAI take it in chunks:
1) When does this SAI activate, conveniently all of your examples are taken into effect at the same time, resolved in the order of your choosing
2) What specifically is being targetted? See the rules quoted above that you mentioned. Some good examples of SAIs that have particular targetting requirements other than Flame are:
| Quote: |
Hug: Special (melee attack); Normal (dragon attack or melee avoidance)
During a melee attack, for each unit that generates Hug results choose one unit in the defending army. Hug immediately inflicts four points of damage on the target unit. The unit gets no saves, but does roll to counter-attack the hugging unit, which cannot save against this damage. During a dragon attack or melee avoidance roll, Hug generates melee results. |
This clearly states that when you roll Hug, you target one other unit, not restricted by health, Hug can target a monster just as easily as it can target a common.
| Quote: |
Flaming Arrow: Special (missile action); Normal (dragon attack or missile avoidance)
During a missile action, for each unit that generates Flaming Arrow results choose one unit in the defending army. Each Flaming Arrow result immediately inflicts one point of damage to the target unit, which must generate saves against this damage. If the target unit is killed it must roll a save or be buried. During a dragon attack or missile avoidance roll, Flaming Arrow generates missile results. |
Flaming Arrow also targets only one unit, up to the total health of the results rolled. You can target any one unit with this SAI but if you don't target one with all of the results you generated, you are giving up those results.
In the case of poison
| Quote: |
Poison: Special (melee attack)
During a melee attack, choose one health-worth of units in the defending army per Poison result
generated. Each target unit must immediately generate a save or be killed. Any units that are
killed must roll a save or be buried. |
For each Poison result you generate, using the rules listed above, you get to target one health of units. This is saying that unlike Flaming Arrow you can target any number of units up to the number of results you have available, which in the case of a monster is 4.
Thus you could target four commons, two uncommons, one monster, or whatever other combination you desire.
Does that help? |
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loligarchy
common
Stockholder
Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 251
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:48 pm GMT Post subject: |
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As to the question about saves on an eighth face, that one is pretty straight forward.
| Rules v2.8 Page 20 wrote: | If a terrain is maneuvered to its eighth face (the number 8 is showing), the acting army immediately controls or “captures” that terrain. Remember, capturing two terrains wins the game. Simply orient the terrain die so the icon faces your army. An army that has captured a terrain receives several special advantages for as long as it retains control of that terrain die:
1) When rolling an army, all save results rolled are doubled. Note: When a unit requires save results to avoid an individual-targeting effect, these results are not doubled.
2) When rolling an army, all maneuver results rolled are doubled. Note: When a unit requires maneuver results to avoid an individual-targeting effect, these results are not doubled.
3) The army can use melee, missile, or magic as it sees fit, but enemy armies at the terrain are restricted to only melee attacks. |
Any time you roll the Army, you double Manuever and Save results. This includes all manner of attacks and save rolls and confers some interesting benefits when it interacts with various racial abilities.
Remember the Order of Modifiers
| Rules v2.8 Page 17 wrote: | Applying Dice Modifiers
When more than one modifier is in effect, apply them in the following order:
Modifiers that subtract: results can never be negative; 0 is as low as a result can go
Modifiers that divide: round down
Modifiers that multiply
Racial abilities: that either multiply or count one result as another
Modifiers that add |
You get to double your results before you convert them, so if you are for instance playing Amazons and engaging in a missile action on a flatland at an 8th face you control, you will double all of your manuevers before converting them to missiles.
The same is true for Firewalkers when rolling non-sai save results during a melee attack at any 8th face they control. Their saves will double and then be added to their melee results.
Lava Elves and Coral Elves at an 8th face under their control will double their manuevers rolled and then convert those to saves. The saves they generate honestly will also be doubled. |
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klypto
dragonfoal
Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Mattoon, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:25 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| thanks, on both accounts. The second question I didn't think to read the online rulebook and is worded oddly in my rulebook. That clears everything up. |
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klypto
dragonfoal
Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Mattoon, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:54 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| the last thing you mentioned for swamp stalkers is swamps, would double their maneuver, then add it to saves, then double the saves? So every maneuver would become four saves? |
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:19 pm GMT Post subject: |
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No. Swamp Stalkers do not get double maneuvers in Swamplands. They get maneuvers as saves. If a Swamp Stalker army controls an eighth face, they get double maneuver which are converted to saves. Those saves cannot be doubled again, because of the order of modifiers. The order: subtract, divide, multiply, racial, add is designed so you only double at the multiply and then convert maneuvers to saves at the racial. You can't loop back.
_________________
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My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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loligarchy
common
Stockholder
Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 251
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:34 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Manuevers don't get counted more than once because of the order of modifiers. Every step is tallied in total before moving on to the next.
| Rules v 2.8 Page 17 wrote: | Applying Dice Modifiers
When more than one modifier is in effect, apply them in the following order:
Modifiers that subtract: results can never be negative; 0 is as low as a result can go
Modifiers that divide: round down
Modifiers that multiply
Racial abilities: that either multiply or count one result as another
Modifiers that add |
In the specific case of an army of Swamp Stalkers, Lava Elves or Coral Elves in control of an eighth face this means what I said previously.
For example, lets say you have 18 points of Swamp Stalker units consisting of:
1 Swamp Giant
1 Annihilator
1 Wave Rider
1 Marsh Swimmer
1 Ravager
1 Warmonger
3 Bog Runner
You roll to save, with these results
Annihilator: 2 Melee
Bog Runner: 1 Save
Bog Runner: 1 Save
Bog Runner: 2 Maneuver
Marsh Swimmer: 2 Melee
Ravager: 2 Save
Swamp Giant: 4 Save
Warmonger: 2 Melee
Wave Rider: 2 Maneuver
Tally up your Manuevers and your saves, in this case:
8 Saves
4 Manuevers
Now we consult the Order of modifiers, following each step for both Manuevers and Saves independantly because its one roll.
Lets assume for simplicity's sake that the only special thing going on in this case is that you control an 8th face that is a swamp of some variety.
Thus there will be no modifiers that subtract or divide, but because you do multiply both manuevers and saves you do so at the same time.
Thus your saves double up to 16 and your manuevers double to 8.
The fourth step is the step for conversion, which allows Swamp Stalkers to take those 8 manuevers and turn them into saves while in the swamp.
Thus you end up with 24 saves in total.
You aren't able to go back and double the manuevers after they are converted because multiplying is the step prior to the conversion step. Likewise if you had some spell that added to manuevers on the army, like windwalk, you would not get to convert those to saves either because it is the last step in the order of modifiers list, and therefore would only be added after you have already had the chance to convert.
This is why I always keep a crib sheet with the order of modifiers and SAI resolution order out for the players in my group, so that they always can just follow each respectively. |
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klypto
dragonfoal
Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Mattoon, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:53 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| loligarchy wrote: |
You get to double your results before you convert them, so if you are for instance playing Amazons and engaging in a missile action on a flatland at an 8th face you control, you will double all of your manuevers before converting them to missiles.
The same is true for Firewalkers when rolling non-sai save results during a melee attack at any 8th face they control. Their saves will double and then be added to their melee results.
Lava Elves and Coral Elves at an 8th face under their control will double their manuevers rolled and then convert those to saves. The saves they generate honestly will also be doubled. |
Sorry I misread the last sentence here. Thought the saves generated by the maneuvers were what you were talking about. Understand it now, thanks. We will need crib sheets for almost all the rules lol. Thanks for smoothing things out for me. |
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