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Tournament Coverage
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myzery256
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Tournament Coverage Reply with quote

If any Gencon attendee has the time I and I am sure at least a few others would love some tournament coverage such as races played, decisive gaming moments, winners prizes handed out etc.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have the booth setup. I'll have to take some pictures and send them on.
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slcobbs
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:19 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I can tell you about the Single Race results, since I ran the tournament.

First Place: Bradley Swanson
Second Place: John Monnett
Third Place: Pat Pint
Fourth Place: Matt Arnold

Bradley and John both played Frostwing armies, Pat played Goblins and Matt played Treefolk.

So, there is one result.

Scott C


Last edited by slcobbs on Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:08 pm GMT; edited 1 time in total
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myzery256
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for the info. Also was there a prize handed out? Or was it just for fun/ranking? I am curious as to how SFR tournaments are run.
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slcobbs
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:20 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

myzery256 wrote:
Thank you very much for the info. Also was there a prize handed out? Or was it just for fun/ranking? I am curious as to how SFR tournaments are run.


They each got a certificate for each place in the tournament. There were some prototype dice give out at prizes, but I don't have the specifics.

I know there are Dark Slayers, hand painted Dragonkin Champs, and some alternate inked Treefolk. But I don't konw which ones were give as prizes.

Scott C
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sealed box tournament winner was John Koslow; Matt Arnold came in second, and Jeff Chen came in third. The fourth qualifier (John Harrington) didn't show up for the finals, so he got an automatic fourth place.

Night of the Living Dead had only two people, Chuck Pint and myself. Chuck of course won that one.

No Magicians had three players. Chuck Pint won that as well, with myself coming in second, and Matt Arnold in third.

Battlefest was brutal and I don't want to talk about it. Mad Suffice to say that Scott Cobbs won that hands down with his (illegal) all black Dragonmaster army.

World Championship Finals was won by Scott Cobbs with a black/blue Dragonmaster/Dragonhunter army. Second place was won by John Monnett with a Frostwing army. Third place was taken by myself with a Goblin/Swampstalker/Treefolk army. Fourth place went to Matt Arnold with a Treefolk army.

Matt Arnold was the fourth place winner of Single Race.

You'll have to ask Chuck about Misfit Monster Bash.

-Brad
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Deeghter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:

Battlefest was brutal and I don't want to talk about it. Mad Suffice to say that Scott Cobbs won that hands down with his (illegal) all black Dragonmaster army.


WOW! 15 black Masters! That sounds pretty nasty!! Twisted Evil

But how was he able to play an illegal army without bein disqualified??

And why was it illegal anyway???
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was able to play because Chuck and Mark (the gamemaster) let him play.

It was illegal because there is a limit of 3 black dragonmasters in a 60 point game. Battlefest lets you bring as many mages as you want, but the limit on Eldarim is still in effect.

And yes, it was very nasty. As far as I can remember, the person who did the best against Scott was Chuck, who lost on the tie-breaker rules when time was called.

-Brad
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dead_mike
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:04 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So basically, it was ruled that "there is no limit to the number of magic-using dice" meant that if any die had magic or cantrip you could use as many copies of that die as you wanted, regardless of other game-based limitations?
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So basically, it was ruled that "there is no limit to the number of magic-using dice" meant that if any die had magic or cantrip you could use as many copies of that die as you wanted, regardless of other game-based limitations?


Not exactly.

Standard tournament army construction limits the number of mages to no more than half the health of your army. Eldarim are included when calculating how much health worth of mages you have.

Battlefest removes the restriction on the number of mages. You could have an army made entirely of mages (and two people did bring such armies). However, the limits on the Eldarim is still in effect. So, although Dragonmasters are mages, you can still only bring three black ones. An army consisting of 3 black Masters, 3 green masters, 3 blue masters, 3 gold masters, and 3 red masters would be legal; an army of 15 black masters is illegal.

Hope that clears everything up.

-Brad
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dead_mike
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that is not how it was ruled at the tournament you played in, right? I myself was under the impression that "no limit to the number of magic-using dice" in the Battlefest rules applied only to the 50% magic-using unit limit. But it appears that the most inclusive meaning of "no limit" is that any rule that would limit the inclusion of any unit with magic or cantrip icons is ignored for this format. Like I said, I didn't read the rule that way originally, and I am not sure if that was the intent of the original rule (maybe the writers could shed a little light), but the way it was ruled at GenCon is one possible interpretation of the rule. And, obviously, sets a precedence for any other tournaments in the Battlefest format.
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't a ruling; it was Chuck being too tired to argue with Scott about it and just let him play it because that was easier. They did argue about it for a couple of minutes. The problem was that Scott was using the old TSR version of Battlefest rules and Chuck was using the newer SFR rules. If I had been running the event, I would has disqualified Scott, board member or not.

For all future tournaments, the Battlefest rules will be as I described above (unless SFR changes them, of course. But I don't see that happening.).

If there are any further questions, I'll let Chuck or any of the other board members answer them.

-Brad
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slcobbs
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:
It wasn't a ruling; it was Chuck being too tired to argue with Scott about it and just let him play it because that was easier. They did argue about it for a couple of minutes. The problem was that Scott was using the old TSR version of Battlefest rules and Chuck was using the newer SFR rules. If I had been running the event, I would has disqualified Scott, board member or not.

For all future tournaments, the Battlefest rules will be as I described above (unless SFR changes them, of course. But I don't see that happening.).

If there are any further questions, I'll let Chuck or any of the other board members answer them.

-Brad


To my defense. Battlefest has always been a completely unrestricted event. Until the recent revision, which I did not realize. Battlefest always allowed you to use whatever dice you wanted to. That is the nature of the beast. You want to use those two headed goblins, go ahead. You want all slayers, go ahead (which I did in 2001 and lost). Also, the army was good but in two games the all black actually hurt me. I was pretty hamstrung with only one color. The main strengths thing about the army was the SAI fly and sneak attack which all masters have. The black helped in some games but not as much as I thought it would have. I think I would change it up some if I played all Masters again, even if it is unrestricted.

If Chuck had two-three more turns he would have easily beaten that army. He was using Feral-Treefolk which is one of the armies that all masters has a hard time to deal with.

As for changing the format of battlefest, there will be discussion on that issue. I'm definitely in favor of the original version, totally unrestricted. Use whatever dice you want to.

Scott C
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dead_mike
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

slcobbs wrote:
As for changing the format of battlefest, there will be discussion on that issue. I'm definitely in favor of the original version, totally unrestricted. Use whatever dice you want to.

I like the sound of that. Although I would personally want to add the limitation that only tournament-legal dice may be used (i.e. no dice with game-affecting misprints).


Mike
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

dead_mike wrote:
slcobbs wrote:
As for changing the format of battlefest, there will be discussion on that issue. I'm definitely in favor of the original version, totally unrestricted. Use whatever dice you want to.

I like the sound of that. Although I would personally want to add the limitation that only tournament-legal dice may be used (i.e. no dice with game-affecting misprints).


Mike


Just curious, but why limit the misprints? They really don't make a huge impact. Let them use those double headed or no headed goblins. And as for the terrains, I only know of one person in the world that even has any.

Were there other misprints that seem overpowered to you?

Scott C
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dead_mike
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:01 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

slcobbs wrote:
Just curious, but why limit the misprints? They really don't make a huge impact. Let them use those double headed or no headed goblins. And as for the terrains, I only know of one person in the world that even has any.

Were there other misprints that seem overpowered to you?

I'm not really against misprints in particular, I was just quoting the definition of 'tournament-legal' from the rules. What I am all for is tournament-legality. If the rules just say that 'anything goes' for Battlefest, then what if I bring a die that has all the faces rubbed off? Not that that would benefit me, but what if instead I brought a die that was chipped on the side opposite the ID icon so that it had a tendency to roll a lot of IDs? What about a really warn-down die with rounded sides that made it hard to tell which face was facing up? I just think if there is an inclusion of 'only tournament legal dice', then everybody knows exactly what to expect. Nobody will feel ripped off or short-changed because somebody showed up with some crazy dice that totally affected the game (good or bad).

Since I am on the topic, I will mention that I personally think the definition of 'tournament-legal' needs to be expanded anyways (to include, cracked, chipped, worn, etc). I also think that misprints should in fact be tournament legal (as long as they are confirmed TSR/SFR produced misprints or prototypes - someone shouldn't be able to make their own die and claim it was a misprint they pulled from a kicker). The only arguments I can think of against making misprints tournament legal are 1) that only very few people have access to them, so if they provide an advantage only a privileged few would be able to use them - but I think things like the Unseelie, Inferno, and Magi are in this category as well, so I don't see it as a huge problem; and 2) all the possible misprints and prototypes might not be know, so it would be hard for a player to account for them while building his army. This one is a little harder for me to defend, but in reality new players might not know what to expect from experienced players, and experienced players might not know what to expect from world-champion level players. If you are already world-champion material then you probably already know about all the misprints and prototypes anyway.

I'll also add that I am a huge fan of things like robust rules, tournament-legality, official clarifications, etc (your average, despised, rules lawyer kind of guy Wink ). I think universally-enforceable rules are important for any game that has tournaments that people from different parts of the world come together and play. I'll have to admit that I don't really like what I've read about the Battlefest tournament at GenCon, but either way, whatever happened, hopefully a better, stronger - yes, even more fun - set of tournament rules can come out of it. Smile

Anyway, I guess that's my two bits Smile


Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:06 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:

It was illegal because there is a limit of 3 black dragonmasters in a 60 point game. Battlefest lets you bring as many mages as you want, but the limit on Eldarim is still in effect.


Oh, yes, the promo/dragon ratio!( one of each Eldarim for every 24 hp in your army, i.e. = as many as you have to bring dragons).
It came to my mind when I had shut down my PC and went to bed. I was just too lazy to get up again, boot the PC again and correct my post.
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Well, now I followed your rules discussion.
First and most important:
Sorry, Scott, but If I want to take part in a convention, then I have to re-read the rules and check if something has changed which relates to the army or tactics I want to play before I show up for the tournament. (I even do that in regular games!).
If a player shows up with an illegal army, the logic consequence would be disqualification if he/she has no "Plan B", i.e. another army. Well, in this case the other players agreed (for whatever reason), so it's OK. If they agreed they shouldn't complain afterwards.

But to break a lance for Scott:
The rules say "no limits on number of magicians", OK. This can really be misunderstood in some way, especially by beginners (you are not meant with "beginner", Scott Laughing)! It would be better to write "the 50% ratio of magicians is withdrawn for this tournament style, other limits remain as written in the rules".


Second, and not much less important (this is meant in general, not only referring to this very game):
If somebody runs an event, he's/she's moderator and judge in one person! If there is a part in the rules which is not 100% clear, then the judge has the final word!!! No argueing!!! That's what judges are for!! If they say it's illegal, then it is illegal, basta!! I'm sure that SFR pays very attention to the qualification of the persons in charge for a game, so just trust your judges in a game!
For the fluent run of such an event's sake there's no time for argueing about rules for a quarter hour or so! The judge makes the decisions and they have to be accepted! If it was a bad mistake, then complain or discuss it afterwards. There will always be a way to find a solution for everybody's satisfaction!

Third: Misprints etc...

I consider "legal" dice as those dice which went into production and came out the way they were planned for the game! Misproductions, misprints, damaged dice, worn dice, handpainted dice and prototypes should be forbidden and considered illegal.
Use them at home in a game against your mother in law, but stay away with them from official tournaments (or create an extra tournament style for that but which should be considered "out of competition" regarding to players' ratings).

Just my personal opinion. Cool
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:40 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

slcobbs wrote:
some alternate inked Treefolk™.


Those black inked treefolk are sweet looking
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:50 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:
Scott Cobbs won that hands down with his (illegal) all black Dragonmaster army.


Last time I played in battlefest I played against some Champions which haven't event been printed yet! Tell me that was fair.

As for the 15 black masters, thank you very much for your purchase Twisted Evil

As for them winning hands down? Your opponents lacked experience. I'd like to play against you, as you know Philip in OKC loved to play an all Slayer army, so I've got lots of experience. It isn't that hard to beat, you just have to know how to do it before you begin playing. Twisted Evil

The Fly and Cantrip will change the game because an all master army can hold an 8th face ... usefully, while an all slayer army is worthless holding an 8th face.

Cliff
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
piMaster wrote:
Scott Cobbs won that hands down with his (illegal) all black Dragonmaster army.


Last time I played in battlefest I played against some Champions which haven't event been printed yet! Tell me that was fair.

As for the 15 black masters, thank you very much for your purchase Twisted Evil

As for them winning hands down? Your opponents lacked experience. I'd like to play against you, as you know Philip in OKC loved to play an all Slayer army, so I've got lots of experience. It isn't that hard to beat, you just have to know how to do it before you begin playing. Twisted Evil

The Fly and Cantrip will change the game because an all master army can hold an 8th face ... usefully, while an all slayer army is worthless holding an 8th face.

Cliff


That is correct Cliff. In two games I was forced to hold an 8th face and with the masters I was able to (Barely able to hold it against Chuck). Is it a powerful army, yes. Is it impossible to beat, No. Chuck had me down to I believe 5-6 masters out of the 15 that I started with, so if he had a few more turns he would have killed off the other 5 and won the game. I got lucky against John Koslow (All Magic Users, mostly Frostwings, some Firewalkers, and a couple rare Lava Elf Magic Users) the terrains came up in the middle of the pack. The most powerful place for the masters and slayers for that matter of fact. If one of them would have come up on magic, I would have been toast. John would have been flinging at least 5 lightning strikes a turn on the first turn. Then when he gets all of his armies in one place, he could fling up to 15 lightning strikes per turn.
The ability of my army to beat John's was actually a little luck and some skill and experience to know what to do.

If the players at the tournament didn't want me to play that army I wouldn't have. I would have said OK, I understand that with the current rules I have an illegal army and I would not play. If the Judge had decided to rule against me playing, that would have been fine to. I didn't play this army because I thought it was the strongest army around. I played it just out of fun, because I played an all slayer army when they came out in 2001. I wanted to do the same in 2005 with the release of the Masters. That is all. If I created some ill feelings I apologize for this and it will never happen again. Our community is all about having fun and enjoying the game. Tournaments are a little more competetive, but in the end it is all about the fun of the game. That is why I play dragon dice. Also, this is the first time ever that I beat both John Koslow and Chuck Pint in one tournament. It takes more than a good army to beat them. I believe my skill and experience helped me get the wins that I did, and not the illegal army. Again, I'm sorry if I offended, angered, or hurt anyones feelings. That was not my intention. I love Dragon Dice and all the players around the globe.

Scott C
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