SFR, Inc.

UltimaGabe

So, I've finally picked up a set of Eldarim Champions (a Dragoncrusader and five Dragonzealots), and now that I have them I figured I should probably find out what they do. (I probably should have done that before, but, eh.) I'm not sure why, but I feel like they used to be more powerful. Did they get nerfed?

Don't get me wrong- they've got some pretty powerful SAIs (Sneak Attack, Smite, Fly, and Cantrip all on one die? Sign me up!), but the way their SFR logos interact with dragons is a bit... underwhelming. Can someone tell me if I have this wrong?

Dragonlords/Dragonmasters "tame" the dragon, which means that the dragon only attacks (and thus can only be killed) when the DL/DM wants them to attack. (I can't imagine many situations where the DL/DM would choose not to have the Dragon attack a foe- the only one I can think of is when the opposing army has a DL/DM as well, and you're afraid they'll wrest control. So in most cases this just means the Dragon in question is no longer a danger.) Upon further inspection, it also seems like DLs/DMs can use a tamed dragon to instantly move from one terrain to any other terrain at the end of your turn, which seems nifty.

Dragonslayers/Dragonhunters slay the dragon, which obviously means the Dragon is killed, though it looks like the dragon is only banished from the game if it's killed by a Dragonhunter? (Not a Dragonslayer? Is this right? That seems a bit weird, but oh well.) Also, DHs/DSs make their entire army immune to dragon breath of their respective colors.

Dragoncrusaders/Dragonzealots "control" the dragon (BTW, the rules say "conrol"- small typo but oh well) which it seems simply means the dragon doesn't attack, and you can kill it at your leisure without any fear of attack? That doesn't seem as good as the DS/DH ability, but is the tradeoff the fact that you can roll the dragon against in your attack against other dragons? Do you get to add the dragon's 5 automatic saves against a dragon attack? How long does it stay controlled? I assume you cannot use the dragon to attack other armies, correct? (I recall a post with such an ability a while back, but I'm fairly certain it was a joke.) The DC/DZ entry just seems so short compared to the DL/DM entry, which makes me think it only lasts for a round (which seems quite underwhelming, but I could be wrong).

I guess my main issue is with Dragoncrusaders and Dragonzealots. The rues describe them as "immensely powerful 4-health units", but they almost seem LESS powerful than the other Champions. (They have no extra effect comparable to the dragonriding or breath immunity abilities, and their SFR Logo effect, while neat, just doesn't seem strong enough to make up for it.) I mean, again, they're powerful, but compared to the other two I feel like I'm missing something. Also, the rules say that Dragonzealots have "several advantages and disadvantages when compared to the Dragoncrusader", but I don't see any advantages, just disadvantages (the single color compared to all colors). I suppose the fact that you can bring one DZ of each color could be considered an advantage, but even then that's one advantage, not several. Again, I feel like I'm missing something.

Did I get it all? Did the Eldarim Champions used to be different, or am I just remembering them wrong?

UltimaGabe · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:50 am GMT Post subject:

Alright, upon reading the SAI section I think I may have answered some of my concerns regarding the Dragoncrusader/Dragonzealot.

First, the DC/DZ's SFR Logo description says, "Or the controlled dragon can be rolled, adding the dragon’s damage to the army’s melee damage." It doesn't seem to specify this can only be done during a dragon attack, so if that means you can use it to attack another army, that is indeed quite awesome.

Also, the Dragonzealot (not Dragoncrusader) says that the SFR Logo, when rolled during any roll, counts as a 2-point ID Icon. That's definitely a benefit over the Dragoncrusader (whose SFR Logo, outside of dragon controlling, only functions as 4 points of save, and only during an individually-targeting effect)- though the idea of a 4-health unit having a 2-health ID icon strikes me as odd. But oh well.

I'll admit, I'm liking Dragoncrusaders and Dragonzealots more, assuming my observations are correct.

chuckpint · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:15 am GMT Post subject:

You are missing the wording at the top of the SAI that specifies when it applies. In this case it's marked: "Conditional (dragon attack)". The text that talks about dragon control starts with: "Before the dragons attacks the army containing this unit, immediately roll this unit; if and only if this icon is rolled then one dragon is controlled for this battle only." That's something that only happens in a dragon attack, so it should be clear the rest only happens in a dragon attack.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

UltimaGabe · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:34 am GMT Post subject:

cliffwiggs · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:19 am GMT Post subject:

cliffwiggs · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:20 am GMT Post subject:

chuckpint · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:55 am GMT Post subject:

That is incorrect. Both the Dragonlord and Dragoncrusader have the same intro text: "Dragonlords are part of the Eldarim race and are immensely powerful 4-health units.", "Dragoncrusaders are part of the Eldarim race and are immensely powerful 4-health units."

While the Dragonslayer does not use the word "immensely" it does say: "The Dragonslayer is a 4-health unit that is a melee machine. They are also part of the Eldarim race." I don't know about you, but "melee machine" and "immensely powerful" sound about on the same level.

Changed the text under the SFR Logo for Dragoncrusader and Dragonzealot to say: "Or if there is another dragon at that terrain the controlled dragon can be rolled, adding the dragon’s damage to the army’s melee damage." Bolded text is what was added.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

UltimaGabe · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:18 pm GMT Post subject:

cliffwiggs · Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:53 am GMT Post subject:

Something else to consider if that this die also has 4 other faces to consider.

You have valid points on the logo ability, but consider the other faces as well.

Balance is subjective as everyone values the types of icons differently. Some thing missile is better than melee. some thing saves are better than maneuver.

This die saves better than anything else, that is pretty special.

and even if you disagree. every die can't be the best. It's impossible to try.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99