SFR, Inc.

[TheLazyhase]

Hello.

I've re-read recently the Leaving spell. In addition to have the same quirk as Open Grave, there is some more things I would like to confirm.

* unit can only be sent to existing army, I.E. terrain where I have already at least one dice.

* Leaving target only army existing at the time of casting. So army created after the fact - via reserve movement for example - are not under the effect of the spell. More specifically, if I path an unit on a terrain where I have no unit, then cast leaving, both on the same magic action, the pathed unit will not be targeted (because targeting happen before any spell are resolved)

* unit in the targeted army can however be sent on non-targeted army when taken as casualty, as long as thoses army are at a terrain.

* the spell does not precise what happen if there is no army to sent unit to, but I suppose that unit are then sent to the DUA, until I can create a second army (with Teleport on an unicorn or a cantriped path, or something like that).

[piMaster]

[flurven]

Does leaving apply when an army loses units due to a normal melee or archery attack?

The root of the question is do normal actions count as "army targeting effects" or is the utility of leaving limited to spells, SAI's & the like?

[cliffwiggs]

The Melee and Missile actions are army targeting effects.

In general, if the army rolls in response, then it is an army targeting effect.

Note that some SAI's like Smite indicate that magical saves can not prevent them. Leaving and Open Grave are considered magical saves, so they don't help against Smite and similarly worded effects.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[shoesan]

[bluewizard]

[dougelf]

I always see that spell along with open graves and want to try and figure out a combo army using backlash with it so as to cast from one terrain backlash onto the magic battery so they can grab a potential 2nd magic roll for just cantrips.

Curious if anyone has tried that and if so how did it work out?

Example of what i mean to remove confusion:

1st march location has feral units from my army and the Terrain ID shows magic. I roll and hope to get 4 Magic so i can cast Back Lash on where my 2nd march is going to take place that also has a Magic ID on the Terrain Die

Since backlash is Terrain Effecting and not Army i can do this even though it is harmful to my army.

I then end my first march and go to my second where i roll for Magic and cast either open grave or Leaving depending on if i have a Treefolk army there or a Death Magic access race. Since Back lash is after resolution either spell would be in effect and i then roll for the back lash damage and count only the Cantrips rolled for magic after that i resolve damage and either have units in reserve that i can reinforce to any terrain i wish or I have to move units to a different terrain location per damage resolution. This gives me a potential extra SAI roll for 4 magic each round that if i am using it on a Cantrip heavy battery it has a decent chance of giving me a few extra points to use potentially along with a free reinforce onto another terrain equal to damage taken in units.
_________________
The answer to all of life's questions is pie.

[piMaster]

@bluewizard

You are trying to mix the target of a spell with its effect. These are two seperate parts of the spell that have nothing to do with each other.

The target of the Leaving spell is all of your armies that exist at the time the spell is cast ("Target all of your armies.").

The effect of the Leaving spell is "Until the beginning of your next turn, for any army-targeting effect that causes damage to a target army, any units taken as casualties immediately go to any other of your armies at a terrain rather than the DUA.".

Nowhere in the effect does it state that creating additional armies after the spell is cast allows those armies to use Leaving's effect.

[shoesan]

[cliffwiggs]

FYI - I'm purposely standing back from this.

I'm too close to the way it is expected to work and all the old discussions. I want to watch how newer players interpret it.

something needs to be clarified, I'm watching to verify what it should be.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[shoesan]

That's cool Cliff. I am not necessarily advocating the spell needs to work the way I describe it working. I am just trying to explain how I thought it worked based on current wording. I personally think it should work this way, but maybe it would be viewed as too powerful? I disagree with that, but then again, I don't have the experience playing it to know for certain if that would be the case.

Open Grave costs 6, this one costs 8 and can only be cast by one race.

Sending units to another army is not always better than sending them to reserves. It could be better, but sometimes you want the units you have at a particular army. Sending to reserves (via Open Grave) makes it the end of one turn to get them right back to that army. Sending to another army means it would take two turns, or other special circumstances (Path, ferry, etc) to get them back there. So in some circumstances, it is not as helpful as a spell that costs less. In other instances (if you actually wanted to move the units to another army anyways), it would be better. In any case, it already costs 2 points more than Open Grave and can only be cast by one race. I don't think the way I interpret the spell to be any more game changing than something like Restless Dead.

If it is deemed that it is too powerful, so be it. I still think then that the description has to at least be tweaked to make it clear what the intent of the spell effect is. That could be as simple as changing "Target all your armies" to "Target each your armies currently at a terrain" or "Target all of your armies that exist at the time the spell is declared" if you mean to include the reserve army in the effect (note, I say that because, right now, I also think the reserve army is under the effect if it existed when the spell was cast. Units killed in the reserve army would go to an army at a terrain).
_________________
Shoe

[ddicerc]

From the glossary:

"Target Army: The army chosen to be the recipient of an action, attack or effect."

An army that does not exist at the time a spell is cast cannot be chosen to be the recipient of an action, attack, or effect.
_________________
Steve "DDice" Braun
The Diceman's Gaming Pages: http://ddicerc.weebly.com
2014-2015 U.S. National Champion
(Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...)

[shoesan]

[ddicerc]

The Leaving spell does specify that it affects "target armies." Since target army is defined in the game as an army chosen for effect, and only armies that exist can be chosen, any army that comes into existence after the spell resolves is not one that could be targeted. (That would also include armies created by reserve movement or other game actions.)

That said, I agree it would make more sense for "all your armies" to mean "all your armies," but that's not what I see the current rule set doing.

I also agree that you shouldn't have to look in the glossary to figure out how a spell works, but that means carefully defining all your terms when they come up in the rules. That was not the way the 2.x rules were written, but it can be for any future revisions.
_________________
Steve "DDice" Braun
The Diceman's Gaming Pages: http://ddicerc.weebly.com
2014-2015 U.S. National Champion
(Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...)